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Read about workshops, lectures, and other events that have taken place at the Europe Gateway.
Read about workshops, lectures, and other events that have taken place at the Europe Gateway.
European Encounters is a virtual meetup series between Indiana University faculty and colleagues in Europe. The encounters provides faculty and their European peer(s) with a space for interesting intellectual conversations on a specific topic of joint interest.
Description of the video:Hello everyone. Welcome to our first European Encounters webinar of the new academic year. My name is Andrea Adam Moore. I'm the Director of the Indiana University Europe Gateway that is based in Berlin. I'm very happy to be here today for this European Encounters, which is usually a format that we created with one IU faculty and one European partner. But my dear colleague, David Audretsch, has invited a whole bunch of his European colleagues, so I'm very happy to be here with them today. If they want, they can turn on the videos and show their faces. Hello, there they are. So welcome to you as well. So I just want to say a few words of welcome to our participants. So European Encounters is a kind of a casual academic conversation. But when I use scholars and European partners, we created this to foster academic collaboration and conversations between our faculty and the European colleagues in times where people can meet at academic conferences and chat about their research projects as they used to do, hopefully, will soon be back. And these conversations are usually around 45 minutes to an hour today we take a little bit more time to be together because we have more insights from more speakers than usual. And we also today want to invite your questions already during the session. So if you have a question, one of the panelists, please put it into the Q&A box of this webinar platform. And our chair will try to get these questions answered throughout the webinar. You can also use the chat or more general comments or questions we would like to ask you to use the Q&A form. So today's European Encounter it as topic is 'Policy and Education for Emotional Skills, for Entrepreneurial Success.' And our chair for this panel today is Ronja Kirschning. As a doctoral student at the École supérieure de commerce de Paris ESCP Business School, she's actually based in Berlin and studies at the Berlin campus. Prior to joining ESCP Business School, Ronja graduated from Maastricht University with a Bachelor of Science in International Business. She further received the Master of Science in International Management and Design Innovation from the University of Glasgow. Her research focuses on knowledge spillover entrepreneurship in different contexts, as well as institutional voids and barriers to entrepreneurship in developing countries. And for this, I will hand it over to Ronja, who will introduce for panel and I'll see you back at the end the session. Enjoy and have a good conversation. Yeah, thank you very much, Andrea, for the kind introduction. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you very much for asking me to chair this panel discussion. I would now like to introduce the rest painter to you. So first of all, we have Maha Aly joining us today. Maha Aly is an entrepreneurial emotional education coach at emotionally therapist. Her PhD at the University of Erfurt focuses on entrepreneurial psychology. She brings 15 years of diversified hands-on experience, including professional and academic specialty in the field of customer centricity and digital creation of emotional connection and various technology-based industry is like for example, e-banking, telecom, and e-commerce. She also has professional certifications and practical experience and various schools of coaching, psychoanalysis and emotional therapy. She has been training and consulting nests and entrepreneurs since 2015 and different countries, namely Egypt, Germany, UAE and the UK. And that training and consulting was based on practicing entrepreneurship herself through creating and running her own profitability small business from 2011 to 2017. Her MBA degree, intertwined with her practical experience, taught her that business administration isn't just about operational knowledge, but also understanding human emotions during the venture creation process. So welcome. Aha, happy to have you here today. Thank you, Ronja. Thank you for the kind introduction and I'm happy to join. Great. Thank you. And then we also have Professor David Audretsch here with us today. David is a distinguished professor and Ameritech Chair of Economic Development at Indiana University, where he also serves as Director of the Institute for Development Strategies. He also is a professor at the Department of Innovation Management and Entrepreneurship at the University of Klagenfurt. And an honorary professor of industrial economics and entrepreneurship at the WHU, Otto Beisheim School of Management in Germany. He is Co-founder and Editor in Chief of Small Business Economics and Entrepreneurship Journal. He has also consulted with numerous international organizations, including the World Bank, OECD, the European Union, and the United Nations, as well as private companies. And he currently serves as a member of the advisory board to a number of research and policy institutions, including the Swedish Entrepreneurship Forum in Stockholm, the Jackstädt Center of Entrepreneurship in Wuppertal, and the American Center for Entrepreneurship in Washington, DC. As well as a member of the Scientific Advisory Board of the University of Siegen in Germany. So welcome David. We also have Dr. Alexander Starnecker. here with us today, Alexander currently serves as the CEO of a very successful high-impact German family business, Weisser Spulenkörper GmbH. The company is a market leading fourth generation family business and the production of bobbins, boxes and insulation parts for magnets, motors, relays, sensors and transformers in Germany. Prior to joining the family business, he had positions as a consultant and restructuring and finance and served as the CEO of Elsässer GmbH, and the CFO and CRO of Borco Höhns GmbH. He also holds a PhD from the University of Augsburg where his research focused on the technology transfer in public universities and the universities of applied sciences. Last but not least, I want to mentioned that Alexander has been teaching at the university of Augsburg since 2013. And he is also a regular visitor at Indiana University Bloomington O'Neill School for Public and Environmental affairs. So hello, Alexander, happy to have you here today. And then we have Professor Dr. Christine Volkmann. Christine heads the Chair of Entrepreneurship and Economic Development and heads the UNESCO Chair of Entrepreneurship and Intercultural Management at the Schumpeter School of Business and Economics at the University of Wuppertal. In 2011, she initiated the foundation of the Interdisciplinary Jackstädt Research Center for Entrepreneurship and Innovation. And has had the function as executive board's spokeswoman since then. In 2018, she co-founded a university-wide regional Innovation Lab. Christina has also published numerous journal articles, has published numerous journal articles and textbooks, and act as a review of scientific journals in the field of entrepreneurship. Moreover, she has worked as an advisor for several national and international organizations, especially for various EU organizations, the European Economic and Social Committee and the UNCTAD in the field of entrepreneurship. Her research and teaching activities focus on sustainable and social entrepreneurship, entrepreneurial ecosystems, academic entrepreneurship, entrepreneurial leadership and entrepreneurial finance. Finally, she also volunteers and scientific foundations as well as a jury member in national startup and company competitions, for example, EY Entrepreneur of the Year, or Grünerpreis NRW. So I'm happy to have you here, Christine today. Yeah. Thank you all for joining today. Thank you to our audience as well. Before we start the discussion, I quickly wanted to encourage the audience again to read questions in the chat. We are more than happy to discuss your questions. And yeah, With that being said, I think that we can start our discussion now. And I believe that an excellent starting point is the paper that you recently published, Maha. For those of you in the audience who have not seen the article yet, ma ha has recently published a very interesting article that has already caught the attention of a broad range of researchers and policymakers in the agenda of technology transfer. The name of the paper is emotionally escape for entrepreneurial success, the promise of entrepreneurship education and policy. So Maha, could you please tell us why you wrote this article and how this reflects the work you're doing. Hello. Thank you, Ronja, and yeah, better to start directly with the presentation, to talk about the paper and to tell you exactly what we did and what we are going to do. So you can connect all the dots. So let me share my screen. Can you see my screen now? Yes. Okay. That nice tight with what we are talking about today, which is policy and education for entrepreneur, for entrepreneurial skills, for entrepreneurial success. So I would like to start with the problem, but I want you to watch the coming video and to read between the lines what could be the problem, okay, So let me start the video, hopefully start B1 much we're living me. When you thought about like an easily build an electric walking, I didn't think it would be easy. I guess that I put there or we fail. But I like your company. It's almost like having a child. So it's like how do you say I put a 1 once you have the company who painted them and then earth and the care of it, you're going to be yeah. There wasn't enough time in 2008. And in 2008, after you get through that period of time, where it's a spec per second bucket with everything. And I was borrowing money from banks to pay that, right? Well, I mean, it hasn't really face this fear of death due to the model to production. Because it's actually becoming bleeding money like crazy. And we didn't solve these positive pressure periods. 9, we were just curious built to solve them. I'll close to death. We are saying, but wait flowers hours a day. And when I'll be honest with you agree. City of backing up to the assembly shop. If a way like yourself wanting like just a touch, absolutely. No one should spend eight hours of work. This is not good for the heart at rest, my hurts my brain, my art area that you can into given that, you know, even if you're, if you're the best, the best, there's always a chance event so that you really want to be doing. If you don't like it, like this to show, I'd say. And also, if you like, when you think about it, even when you're not working. I mean, it'll just get something in your mind. And if you don't like it, It's really can make work. I think when you had that third failure in a row, did you think I need to pack this? Should know by now. All right. I don't have to be that are passive. Starting a business and say, No one is, have a high paintbrush close friend of mine. And he started saying, which is that Sony accompany us, like any glass is certainly debits. That's that's generally what happens. Because when you press that accompany this lots of optimism and things with music, right? So happy who is at risk is high. Then you encounter all sorts of issues and happiness will steadily decline. And then you will go through a whole. And then eventually go if you succeed, and in most cases you will not succeed. And Tesla, Omar's very steep and or prolonged mind nor finally department. So I think you've heard many key words about emotions, right? And the main question here is, why emotions matter? Why they are important for entrepreneurial success. I think many people have seen nascent entrepreneurs who just gave up on their ideas because an emotional challenges like I'm unable to continue, I'm not what motivated at least. And I'm sure also that you are so many entrepreneurs who changed their attitude completely after success or failure. Either with the being arrogant or, or even with failure to being broken or seeking how to cover the shame or to cover the failure and to rise up again or to submit and surrender. So the important question is, how to manage our emotions, how to make decisions and control our behaviors wisely. Why do I put decisions and behaviors besides emotions here? You know that the entrepreneurial journey is CLI, or based on decisions and behaviors. And according to the cognitive behavioral theory, if we want to control our behaviors and decisions, we have to cut the link between the negative thoughts we have and the negative emotions that might be rooted in childhood traumas as well. And they are not enabling us to move forward to the success of our entrepreneurial endeavors. So the second important question is, why nobody teach this side of entrepreneurship? Why nobody teaches Psychology and entrepreneurial classes? What can your entrepreneurial journey look like? Why only in every entrepreneurial educational program we're having marketing, finance, prototyping, all the other stuff that you know from the MBA or from any educational program or even prototyping if you go for a very quick startup crack or for example. So I would say that these are two important questions that really mattered for the success of entrepreneurs. And if we talk about the numbers to highlight the problems more, then if 90% of the new startups fail due to building something nobody wants. And this is like a famous idea that we know. But 30% of this, 90%, which is third, that startups are failing due to emotional state or the founders. 13 percent of the founders lost focus. 9% of the founders lost passion, and 8% of the founders had burnout. Okay, now we, So the problem, I want to share a small story. What brought me here, okay, what brought us to the idea of seeking how to help entrepreneurs emotionally? It 2011, I finished my MBA in Maastricht School of Management and the Netherlands. And I decided, okay, I was a graduate of Computer Science and my mind is all about mobile apps and desktop systems. And yeah, I wanted to start a business. But because I'm very passionate to some other stuff, I toast to go and start a small business and fascia and keep my IT job in the morning. But because I want to practice what I learned and the MBA program, I want to start a business and do this business administration, run it and make it successful. In the middle of the way on, before the middle even I discovered that, oh my god, I don't know many things. Basically how to manage the decisions, the emotional interactions, and that attack of thoughts that comes to my mind in the middle of managing customers and managing an international business actually. So I'm doing everything relevant to operations outside of where I am in China actually. And then I, I bring and I import everything from there, but after tailoring it. So in 2014, I decided to go for a coach to search for a coach, not a business coach, but a life coach, to tell me how to challenge my beliefs. How to get rid of the negative and limiting beliefs that are hurting my business and hurting my own emotional side. It's very exhausting. And we cannot deny this fact, but we need to manage it. Okay? And after a few sessions, when I started to feel a much better, I decided to be also certified life coach to be able to help younger people and nascent start a startup entrepreneurs to see the world from a different perspective. Because I experienced this. By the end of 2014, I earned my first million and I was so happy to do this before I hit 30. And then in 2015, more problems start to arise because I still have emotional challenges, not beliefs, but emotional challenges. And then I went to a therapist and I tried to solve my emotional challenges and improve my emotional state. Then after a few sessions when I started to feel better, I said, Okay, why not to become also a certified emotional therapist? Because I was at that time selected by Microsoft Egypt to help young entrepreneurs and to be a mentor for the fresh graduates. And I really want to give them not just the business coaching, but give them this side that I did not learn in my MBA program. And no one told me about discovered inside the journey. And I know I really want to help others to get rid of these challenges that might be hindering the journey. Okay, In the same year I became the customer experience and user experience lead and one of the telecom operators in Egypt. And this means that I'm dealing with customers emotions all the time. So I'm living in a world full of emotions. We are all human beings. In 2017, I started my PhD in Germany in entrepreneur psychology. And in parallel I was consulting. I've been actually a big consulting since then. And coaching and doing therapy for nascent entrepreneurs and only focusing on nascent entrepreneurs in Germany, UK, you a, E, and Egypt. And in every session with every entrepreneur, when they bring a problem like I'm unable to manage my time, for example, this sounds to be skills or business problem. But if you dig deeper, you find that the roots are emotional, not anything else. And then I started to realize like, yeah, Every time I try to help entrepreneurs to overcome their emotional challenges, their businesses are boosted, booming, are moving forward. They are able to get rid of the problems that are hindering them and holding them back and they are able to step forward. So I discover that there is a need and no one is addressing this need. If I want to search for someone who is going to help me in the business context as an entrepreneur to understand my journey and to address my emotional challenges in this journey, maybe I will not find a big name in this field, right? So we decided me and David to be these big names in the field. In 2020. I met David and the first conversation I had with him in Adelaide and the conference of A3 was about emotion. We've targeted the second startup about emotional empowerment of for entrepreneurs. Okay, Now we mentioned the problem and the story. And if we want to talk about solutions now, the solutions that we are addressing, spreading awareness, taking action, monitoring the results, and assessing the next steps. The first one is, we wrote this paper, a conceptual paper to invite researchers to explore and translate research into practice. We want to help entrepreneurs, not just by highlighting the problems which is very low. In the literature, you will find many problem and emotional problems addressed. But yeah, what to do about them? Next, we want the next level. If we look at this J curve, this is the famous J curve that is describing the key stages of entrepreneurial start-up development. You start with an idea. You want some fund from the three S family, friends and fools, They get some money. You start to prototype something and because maybe are not connected to your customers or you think that your idea is super. Sometimes the, or most of the times actually the product dies in the prototyping phase in the Death Valley. And then if you are really persistent, connected to your customer, able to identify what people feel about a problem and how they feel about a solution. Then you are able to get with the startup, early growth, expansion and then maturity. Okay? That's the famous J curve according to love 2016. What we did in the paper is that we extended this curve and spotted the emotional challenges that are repetitive in most of the emotional coaching, therapy and coaching sessions with the entrepreneurs we deal with. Okay? So you can simply see how in the beginning of the journey, excitement is very high and you need to manage your expectations, which doesn't always happen. You lose work-life balance in this, in a moment of time you feel like, oh my god, am extremely overwhelmed. Some people turn to be aggressive because they're not able to face the pressure. Some people are driven by the fear of failure. Like for example, in different countries, pick failure is a, is a ghost. They cannot face failure. Some people commit suicide because of this. And they are very afraid of the community, the society around them. Those who are going to point at them and say, oh haha, I told you, don't do this, you're going to be a failure. We can talk about depression, loss of drive, the, the ego inflation. We're going to talk about suicidal thoughts. Those who are very successful and they reached their dreams, and sometimes they reach a certain point of time that they are not able to enjoy life anymore. And they are all relevant to emotions. And I want you to imagine that if you read some of these emotions on the curve, how would you behave? How would your behavior style look like if you are moving from fear of control, fear of losing control, or fear of earning money. And this happens a lot. Okay, so the purpose of this paper, which we show you the grass that, that are actually in the paper that we want to invite entrepreneurship educators and policymakers to what to do, what they do not do. Which is changing culture on the level of emotions to make the ecosystem more entrepreneurial. It's not about financing. It's not just about turning every cafe into our co-working space. In not making a lot of competitions for entrepreneurs are creating more co-working spaces and incubators and accelerators and availing business coaches. Now, there is a big, big side or perspectives that, that was not touched. The culture and the emotional side of the entrepreneurs and how the, how will these emotions are very, very well connected to the culture of a city or a place or region. So since we are talking about culture, Let's take a look at the definition. What could be culture? What is culture? It's a pattern of shared values, beliefs, and behaviors that a group of people, the sum of all feelings and thoughts as the main components of the pre-programmed collective mindset of a group of people. And the beliefs, values, knowledge and skills that have been internalized by the people of a given society. If you want to see what are the components and the finest granularity of culture. It will be emotions and beliefs. Okay, what do we need to do with this? If we want to address and emotional side of a certain cultural value, like uncertainty avoidance, for example. Why uncertainties is greatly avoided by people in some cities, or in some countries, or in some regions. Because people think that uncertainty is or means not, not. There is no security there. There's very, there's this side of being unknown. There's darkness. These are the thoughts behind uncertainty and the emotions a sphere. So I'm moving out of fear and here comes my behavior. I try to avoid anything that brings me fear. So no need for entrepreneurial endeavors than a remake it. And we are living in a very fearful state from failure or loss of income or whatever. And actually I want to talk about this, the cognitive behavioral therapy that is addressing the breakage of the links between behaviors and thoughts and emotions, and behaviors and emotions and thoughts as well. This is one of the techniques that we use in our sessions to help entrepreneurs rise and move and behave from a point of power, not the point of weakness. Let's take an example here. And the most important thing in this slide is moving from a new mindset means new results. Okay? So the example says, if you are in a society where people are in general have fear of failure and high risk avoidance, then at least, if you dig deeper, you will find that failure means a shameful stigma. And I don't want anyone to point at me and say that I'm a failure. So I will not take my entrepreneurial step or start my journey because most probably entrepreneurs fear and I don't want to be one. So that needs to be reframed. That failure is essential to enabling entrepreneurs to dare, to risk, to take further steps. If we, if we are able to disseminate this new notion that it's necessary, like what is happening actually in the Silicon Valley. Fail fast and fail early. Wow. This is, this is very famous that it reaches everywhere in the world. So it's a culture there. They allow failure, they celebrated, and this is what we need to do. And some cities, some countries, to enable entrepreneurial ecosystems. Okay? Second example is uncertainty avoidance. This is the one that I just mentioned. Uncertainty means insecurity. And this is what we need to change. And uncertainty is a very major component for, for humanity by the way. And people who don't know this, It's really a problem because we as human beings, we need certainty and we need uncertainty. Because uncertainty means adventure, discovery, development, and growth, not just. Fear and insecurity. So we build on reframing and coaching. And in CBT, which is the cognitive behavioral therapy and more therapy techniques and therapy sessions. So the last section of a paper is addressing what could be the actions for future. And under the bigger umbrella of public policy, we are inviting countries, governments, institutions to, to help in changing culture. In cities, regions and countries. Help institutions which are incubators, accelerators and business coaching and help and those who are helping entrepreneurs to consider the emotional side. To change culture, to change the culture values that are very famous like, Yeah, if you want to talk about cultural values, these are cultural values. Fear of failure, risk avoidance, uncertainty avoidance. And I think many of you knows what Hofstadter said about cultural values and how they are interrelated or very well-connected to emotions. So we're also inviting clinical approach as we are. This is a coal even for, for, for therapists. Please take care of this. And that. Feel a sort of Shane to visit a therapist. Why not? Because egos are so high and we need to break this as well. We need to, to, to say it everywhere in the country and the city, in every corner that you can visited a therapist to have a better life. Not because you will be crazy percent. So we also invite education, a formula that informal educational programs to include emotional education, courses, or at least knowledge to help entrepreneurs understand what can happen in the journey. We want to help them understand, or at least get the awareness and tools, okay, and know that there is a way out, not just get the awareness that the journey is difficult and it's full of emotional challenges and, and failure. Know, there is a way to solve these things. And maybe the percentage of entrepreneurial failure will decrease by time if we are empowering people from there inside. Okay? So again, the importance of the emotions in the context of entrepreneurial success is that managing emotions is essential for maintaining hope. And this is a very important component for success. Learning to live with chronic uncertainty. Like what happened in the two years of corona, I think everyone experienced what can uncertainty and fear look like? Managing information problems, being able to understand ourselves and other people to manage them, which is emotional intelligence. Being able to make balanced decisions and act wisely. Because, yeah, decisions and actions. These are the components of entrepreneurship, right? The action, what we did is we tried to help entrepreneurs. And we started with the question, has any entrepreneurial educational program or service offered awareness or solutions for emotional challenges? The answer to our knowledge was no at that time. So we decided to start the Institute of entrepreneurial emotional education and research to empower entrepreneurs. Our mission is and power the next generation of entrepreneurs by equipping them with the emotional skills needed to thrive on their entrepreneurial journey that is full of emotional challenges. We are the founders, David and I, and we are offering this service for free. And we are trying to help entrepreneurs everywhere in the world by providing four types of services. The first one is business to government, where we want to change and create entrepreneurial cultures in some cities and institutions and countries as well, those who are suffering from cultural values that are not helping or, or promoting entrepreneurship. Business to business. Giving emotional management workshops and courses to or through, through incubators and accelerators to the entrepreneurs under their umbrella. B2c, business to consumer, which is serving as giving, coaching and therapy sessions. For directly to entrepreneurs. And then in the advanced stage or phase, we will be training the trainer. So we want to qualify people in the field to be emotional coaches, emotional transformation cultures, and emotional therapists, especially dedicated for entrepreneurs. Their results. Let's look at the results. So we had our first trial in Beirut, the capital of Lebanon in the Middle East. We offered ten days with the APIC and music that music University in Lebanon. And the APIC is an accelerator that they're offering a program combined between the students of the user, this to disobey a university with the accelerator. So the accelerator gave us 10 entrepreneurs to work with. And in the last 10 days of July, we had conducted different sessions with them. And you can see the results of our survey here, that 90 percent of the entrepreneurs who received this session's showed more need for emotional skills. 50% experienced emotional blockage resolution in one session, sometimes into sessions. 90 percent of the participants could identify the emotional problems that they have. And 80 percent of them realized how, how emotional education is very important and they need to take courses. They need to identify the side of themselves. If we look at the testimonials. So I'm going to leave them on the screen if anyone wants to lead to read them, but I would like to highlight some of them quickly. The first one said, entrepreneurs, said, I see the importance of considering emotions and entrepreneurship which is on common in our society. Entrepreneur eight said that this is the lesson to be learned. That if we know everything, if we, if we are able to, to, to have management skills and we are perfect and doing our business, but we lack the emotional intelligence, then it's very difficult to continue the entrepreneurial journey. Entrepreneur 5 mentioned that, yeah, I felt that I need the need of going outside of the box, of being under pressurized and start taking care of my work-life balance. And number nine said that the session was a turning point and that session motivated me, include cleared my mind and help me succeed in setting my first meeting with a group of investors and get me more attached to the accelerator program. This means that maybe when we are fixing emotions, we are able to fix the entrepreneurial performance and success levels as well. Here is another set of testimonials from B2C service that we conducted in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. And yeah, they accepted to reveal their names so you can read it as well. The assessment, Okay, we are looking for next opportunity is to empower entrepreneurs to help them, to give them the tools, to give them the chance to improve their emotional side, to make sure that maybe this is going to help them improve their businesses. So I will stop at this point of time and I will ask you, what about you panelists today? What about your stories about entrepreneurs, you, friends, family, relatives? Just give us a hint. Hint about what kind of emotional challenges experience. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. My half of this very insightful presentation. I think as we have an entrepreneur and CEO with us today of a very successful and high impact family business. I'm an MBA. I would like to ask you if you want to share, what types of emotional challenges have you and your family faced. Thank you. First of all, thank you for this great presentation. Deeply impressed about, about the findings you have there and bringing up that very important topic because you are completely right. And, and you mentioned that in one of your testimonials that considering emotions is very, very scarce and people don't talk about emotions, although we are all struggling with emotions every day and every hour, every second. And especially entrepreneurs, due to all the circumstances and the uncertainty of the surroundings. Highly impacted by various emotions. Solid, so very, congratulations, Great, great presentation. I'm still very proud. Thank you. And, and talking about emotional challenge, I think and back to your question on yeah, is that there are two levels of, of emotion. So, so two sides of emotions. Emotions are entrepreneur. I have to, I have my challenges with, and on one side, I have the challenges with the people working in our company. So their emotions and finding out their emotions and finding individual solutions to the, to the needs and, and emotional struggles. And also on the other side, I have my own emotional challenges that I could also find in MA has great presentation on the, on the, on the checkers somewhere. So so, so there are, there are two sides. And the question is, which one are you more interested in? Which side of the emotional challenges? To talk a little bit to me past me. Both sides are quite interesting. And that I think, I mean, m MA, your presentation was more about the emotional challenges the entrepreneur himself or herself. So I think if she, if you want to, Alexander talk a little bit about that, that would be great. So so back to back to Matt's presentation. We are all working in what we call the the VUCA world, which is explaining quite, quite a lot of, of all the struggles we also have emotionally. And as an entrepreneur and myself, when I come to work in the morning, it's not like I know what I'm gonna do and what my day is going to be like. I come in and I have to handle several problems that occur throughout the day. And I will and I will always have the struggle. Is it, is it the right solution that I'm finding to the, to the problem? And that's going to lead to two lot bigger question. And also a high uncertainty and also emotional volatility that I'm, that I'm facing is always the question, am I the right CEO for the company? Is it, is it, is it me the company needs and is what I'm doing and what I'm thinking and what I'm going to bring in on idea. So something to the company is that what what, what is really needed? And, and yeah, back to the question. Am I the right person for the company? And that's, that's, that's quite, that's quite something. Also entrepreneurs have to, have to ask themselves. And especially when they come from the early stage back to the growing stage. It's the, it's the question, are you still the one that's, that's good for a for a company. And are you really helping or IU maybe the reason it's not, it's not for growing. And especially to talk about, to start with my personal emotion. Also is since I'm not I'm not going through the first three stages MHA described in her in her presentation. I'm already in the in the growing stage, maturity stage, and I took the company over my for my for my father, for my great grandfather, my great great grandfather. And and for me, is it always I just borrowed the company. I borrowed it from my parents and my grandparents and I borrowed it to handed over maybe two to, to my my next generation. So it's not it's not like mine. Yeah, people or a thing. And people say, Oh, I work for you and make you the decision. And I always say, No, you don't you don't work for me. Like we're all working together and and nimbly need to find a solution to bring the company into the next generation. And, and that's, that's really tough. And maybe, maybe in some ways even tougher than just maximizing the profit for the next quarterly report. Yes. I'm sorry, my HA you wanted to say something, please go ahead. Yeah. I just noticed that Alexander is talking about self-doubt. Brilliant people go to this area of self-doubt. Self-doubt is a very deep emotional challenges. Well, when you are really brilliant and very good in what you're doing, you're always asking whether good person, year, unlike we did enough in this. And also if you need to reach perfectionism or you need to deliver something really perfect and wow. You need to impress everyone and to deliver the company yes, to the next iteration you wanted to grade as your great grandparents did. So you're always asking, what am I good enough? Am I worth it? Am I into it? This is the emotional challenge activate behind what you're talking about and this could be resolved. That's the good news. I mean, Alexander, would you say that you feel like there is any ex tennis the pod available to you at the moment. I mean, apart from Ma has now great presentation and the venture you created with David my HA, but apart from that, before this presentation, I'll have you heard of any external support available for these challenges? See, they're quite some coaches. I have actually, I have two coaches i'm I'm working with we both worked with a third one in all the and so we had a coach for the handing over process between my father and myself. So we got that professionally. Yeah, someone who helped us with the process. And and and I have a coach for for for for for issues. So so we are all going the whole restarted than 2000, 21, we started a one-year program of leadership training for all, for all the, the the leadership team. And part of this program is also a leadership coach who helps everybody in the company it has. And also has the possibility to find, to see the whole picture of the company throughout the different interviews and the different different talks. And and to be honest, but when it comes to emotional issues, and I have sinned since I made myself am a one-year program of, of of a business coach and I am a certified business coach. I learned a lot of people working in that field and I took one of the, one of the trainers, which is, which is helping me in terms of emotional issues. Despite all the great people I met throughout my career with. One example is David. I love talking to and talking also about emotion and always get it. Great feedback. Thank you very much, Alexander. We just got a comment from one of the, one of the people in the audience. And that kind of talks about the discrepancy between being the founder of the business and what emotional connection you have with the business. In contrast to how does the employee feel about the business because it's not the employee's child, it's your child to put it in your words. Do you see any like did have you thought about this before? Do you see any emotional challenge here? It's the question addressed to me, advice, but if someone adds more more going towards ma ma ma and and yet yeah. Absolutely. That that wasn't what I was trying to say. Also in the beginning. That you have to differentiate between your own emotions and the emotions of the people working with you and working in the company. And you, you always have completely different emotions. And I think you all familiar with the, with the iceberg model from, from, from cry, they only see 20% of the emotions. And you see if I smile now, do you think I'm happy and are below the surface in my 80 percent, I'm quite nervous and thinking, why am I not talking too much or am I talking the right things? And, and you know that it just see me smile and say, okay, Alex might be happening now. Talking yet. And and, and that 80 percent, they're so different in every individual. And that's nothing new can see and nothing you can find out just by walking by and say, hi, how are you doing? And that's, that's, that's. The difference between, Between understand and being understood. And, and we need to understand as also as entrepreneur. And most people also in leadership, they always want to be understood. And that's, that's great. The friends and the the, the very hard work. You have to, you have to do every day. And I start from scratch every day with this struggle between me, one out us to understand me and my ideas, and understand others with their issues. And that's really how I'm far from being good at it, but I'm working on it every day. That's great. You have raised a very, very important concept here, which is emotional intelligence. I think every entrepreneur should get a sort of education to develop emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is just the definition that you mentioned. Understanding myself, understand my emotions, my thoughts, and understanding others as well. Understanding how they think, how they feel, and how how I should end it as a leader, deal with their emotional challenges to make them do what the company needs to do. So, yeah, Again, we're inviting educators, please help entrepreneurs. And Yamaha. You just touched upon education. And we actually have Kristina here with us today, who recently published a very important book on entrepreneurship education at universities. And I was wondering whether you would like to talk a little bit about at what extent emotional skills and capabilities are taught to entrepreneurs. Yeah. What did you find, Christina? Yes. First of all, I would like to thank my wonderful presentation. It was very insightful and I think it's also very helpful might be for assess entrepreneurship educators at universities? Yes. Regarding the book and I really can confirm the findings because yeah, David and I, VB, editor of a book called entrepreneurship education at universities, learnings from 20 European cases. So it was a very exciting book or a project financed by the European Commission. And so the Office of this cases had the opportunity to visit this universities and to check yeah, the institutional aspects. For example, is there a leadership commitment regarding entrepreneurship education? Is there a university-wide entrepreneurship education approach also regarding the curricula, office and the extra curricular activities and entrepreneurship education. So the good news is, all these universities do include entrepreneurship education at their universities. Yeah, but most of these universities, and I checked that yesterday because it's little time ago that we published this book is that the university's focus on technical, more technical skills like new venture creation, entrepreneurial marketing, entrepreneurial finance, innovation management and strategy, business modelling and so on. So there is indeed a lack regarding emotional skills and maybe questions of emotional stability and so on. Okay, we have the traits research and in entrepreneurship. So the question, what are really traits of entrepreneurs? But in the cases, I could only identify one interesting case which might be interesting for the audience. And that is the case of Cambridge, the University of Cambridge, and the Center for Entrepreneurial Learning, their offers a program called enterprise twice. And this is a customized program focused on women entrepreneurship. And the mains, main goals of this program is, or our personal development and increasing self-confidence to be entrepreneurial. And the pedagogical approach is based on iPad onto us. Self-efficacy theory. There is a very interesting theory. And it says that people with high self-efficacy expectancies are healthier, more effective, more effective, and more successful than people with low self efficacy expectancies. And I think this is very important. Point and, and this connects also what Alexander said. What Alexander said, Amanda said that the question is self-reflection. First of all, I have to know who I am and then I can better understand maybe my, my students or my colleagues or my employees. So first of all, the self-reflection is important in this approach. And they use an instrument, it's called Coat of Arms, where you can find out who you are. It's a little bit like BBB be Effectuation Theory. Awesome. Hi Sarah, Sarah Swati, which might be connected to this approach, but am I found this very valuable and would like to share this idea with, with the audience. And I hope that we can discuss how, to what extent shall we include emotional education in our entrepreneurship education curriculum? Because as far as I know, there is lack and there might be a need for, for that. And I think me, and I'm eager to learn more what the others think about this. So this very short in fights of the spoken and the case of Cambridge. Thank you very much Christina and David, what is your take on this? Well, my take is that it's all wonderful. I mean, not the problem. But maybe perhaps I learned something from my HA, which says, you know, you won't find solutions and tell you acknowledge there's a problem. And you had man, they say talking about the problem of entrepreneurs. We have visited, we take students, Alex, he's very kind and host our class at Indiana University every, every spring. And we come, we, we trudge all the way from through the very up to bottom Nurnberg. And you know, yes, you can see as a, as a middle Staedtler or as a family business, they have a lot of challenges and he talked about summer, but the problem I'm talking about is, is for us, those of us like Christina. And you are on your journey, Rohingya of, of those of us in the, in the research community in universities are probably being, Christina really says is, yes. We've identified that there are some emotional challenges confronting entrepreneurs. Mod talks about this is a pretty big literature. Yet we don't seem to offer much in the way of solutions. And it reminds me way back in the early days, none of you could possibly remember back in the early days of field. And the, and even before was a fields emerge, was it? Well, entrepreneurs are born, not made. And that means, you know, you're born a certain way, you can't help them. There's no point in entrepreneurship training. Now this little deeper for business schools, let alone before entrepreneurship programs. But you know, that gave way to, oh, no, maybe we could actually help entrepreneurs. People like Alexander. But of course, millions of people around the world, millions of entrepreneurs we can help with. Christina mentioned this with the, with the, with the market aid, with the human resources, with finance. There's probably more to that than family, friends, and fools that to do. And yet, here's a big area where as, as researchers, we kinda shrug our shoulders and say, yes, we know there's challenges. Lots of great research. My colleagues, Dean Sheppard, Johann fit Glenn really an army of people have identified lot of the issues MOD talked about in yet we're not offering solutions. Rather than to say, Well, maybe if you ignore, it'll go away. Or we say, Hey, this is going to be really, really tough. Elon Musk, you know, in that wonderful little rendition, the my shows us. He talks about problems. And it's really talk about what he did to overcome the problems other than sleep on the couch a lot. And what does it eat, glass or something and stare and the best, that doesn't sound like a good solution. And I think that's more the old school. Thank you. That says you just got to tough it out. You just got to tough it out. And you know, we used to say about finance, me sad, my marketing. We used to say that about team-building, all the different functional areas. And the great thing in the project, the EU project, European Commission project, the Kristina mentioned, which he didn't mentioned, was she assemble the dream team of, of, of researchers spanning continents. It seemed like at least I participated from North America. And then covered an awful lot of what, you know, she mentioned just a little bit about what actually different entrepreneurship programs are doing. It's a fascinating study and took a lot to write up and then finally bring to publication. But she's right going back and looking at in the book I look to, and you know, there's almost, nobody's touching on this. Which makes us think, you know, either we don't recognize the problem or we do and the kind of thing. Well, you know, entrepreneurs are born. And if you're born with these skills and capabilities, toy and if not, tough luck for you, Like Elon, Musk, Chuan, glass and steel and the abyss, sleep on the couch. And, you know, you could tell he barely made, no, I think we I think what mas suggested, there's a better way. There's a better way we need to learn from clinical approaches, but also which he didn't really get to. There's a big promise for policy. There's a reason why entrepreneurs, I'll say the culture of a certain place, probably like be a Berlin for when I used to live there. The culture, the values, the field, the spirit of the city, the laws, the institutions are much more congruent with the emotional health of entrepreneurs than other places which are much more incompatible in it. That's the promise for policy. So yeah, thanks. 10. And yeah, David, you just said that. I mean, that is already some research identifying these problems. And I was just wondering, why do you think emotionally skirts. I have been so notably absent from entrepreneurship education and also from policy-making and maybe us a question too out of you. Oh, I want a bound set the Kristina because she's also, I mean, I think it's In a way, you know, MOD talks about the entrepreneurial journey. And there's kind of a journey of research. And I alluded to it in the beginning of the field of entrepreneurship was his sense of, there's really nothing that education, training could provide it maybe if I go back to when I was your stage wrong, yeah. There was no field of entrepreneurship. Truly. People started businesses, family business. Alexander says he's not, you know, what a euphoric generation, Alexander B, what about those other three generations? There was no sense that any training, education could help them. So we, we've kind of evolving to maybe dealing with the low Haidt for this, we can actually start to understand the finance, financial problems, which a generation ago we didn't think we could, we could help with the marketing, the HR. Why is the emotional problems kinda slow to come? Part of it is which you young people, Rajan Alexander. Well actually all four of you wouldn't really know. A generation ago there was a stigma attached to just admitting or recognizing meetings. Probably the wrong word, but it seemed like admitting. Yeah. I've got emotional challenges. There are emotional challenges to doing whatever it is I'm doing in society. And we seen that just diffuse across. We know soccer players, you call them football players. They have emotional coaches. We know the Hollywood people, actors, musicians, CEOs have emotional coaches. We know in a way outs and a religiously he's kind of getting there. But we've been kind of slow. So why is that? I think it's, you would say in German as income and it's really where this is coming with or without my HA with or without me or anybody. We're going to see 510 years from now. Lots and lots of research, not just identifying the problem, but starting to identify solutions. I don't say this is what happened with all the other areas of entrepreneurship. In the beginning of research, there was lots of, there was lots of research identifying liquidity constraints, financing constraints, all of the financial problems confronting founders, startup, small business, family business. And then over time, we'd start to see more proposals, more recognition. We'd start to see policy change with programs to provide finance. In my country. Things like the Small Business Innovation Research Act, lots and lots of different kinds of policies. But then more recently, of course, we've had, we've had an angel investors and social media investment and so on. So I think that it's kind of this process of diffusion where first you have to recognize a problem. Then you have to kind of recognize we can actually do something about it. I'm talking about research. And then we have to start to move for actually taken it seriously analyzing in proposing solutions. So I don't know, I think that's one interpretation to maybe an impatient younger generation that thanks. Well, if this an issue, why aren't we solving it? That's what makes the next generation always great. I have to say, Christina, what do you also like to add anything to that? Yes, i've I fully agree. What about David sets as I'm how you say it? Dino salary, yeah. Field of entrepreneurship. So we started in, I think 2000s and in the case of Europe, from scratch on in the field of entrepreneurship. And that was a challenge for us. We all traveled to the United States, took courses, Babson habit and so on. Just to learn how to teach and how to educate and how can we learn entrepreneurship? And I think I'm coming back to your question. It's an evolutionary process. So first of all, we had to learn how to design the curricula. How, how can we introduce extra curricular activities and so on. And, and that was focused more on hard facts, how to become an entrepreneur? Entrepreneurs up automate, as David sat and all this question, what is Small Business Administration related to entrepreneurship? Is there a difference between SMEs and startups and so on. So this, this also research question be focused on, and I think it's an evolutionary process that we now come to more other aspects like emotional skills. For example, marketing is as far ahead because they, they always looking. How can we influence the emotions of people? And I think we are lacking behind in the field of entrepreneurship, but, but it's a very, very interesting and challenging research field. And I'm happy that I'm part of this panel discussions because it's very inspiring. Thank you. Thank you, Christina. I am. Maybe another question. Would you do you see any and potentially difficulties with regards to teaching emotion escape? I mean, ma ha, you, you have entrepreneurs with emotional skates. And that's not really teaching, but already addressing the problem. You are as a customer, David, do you see any any am yeah, difficulties and how that could work? Christina? What I think is that we need a more interdisciplinary approach. So we economists, business people, or we need more ecologists, sociologists so to, to analyze what we can do and how we can teach in a better way, this, this complex field of emotional skills. I think that's for economists. It's a challenge. I think people like mama who studied psychology, I think it's very important to include them into our approaches. And that would be very helpful from my point of view just to narrow it down. You know, I was second what Christina said. And I think one of the virtues of having a longer, what would we say Christina, time perspective on life and experience. Christina said this, I think it's kind of a shock to Raja. Possibly Alexander is that the field of entrepreneurship, a phenomenon, or in universities is really this century. And you think, oh, well then they'd, Christina kinda says, but they've been doing it forever. And North America maybe, but I guess I'm even older than forever because when I studied, got my undergraduate, BA, masters, PhD, nobody, the field didn't exist. So it's this, as she said, it's this evolutionary, you know, it's this, this evolutionary process. So I think I'm optimistic. What do we need? I mean, I don't think people like me aren't necessarily going to be providing the education, the skills, I think in Christina kind of alluded to this. It's going to take people with different backgrounds, perhaps, as she said, interdisciplinary. But we've seen just issue after issue when it seems like, wow, societies had a, a roadblock that there's this energy, There's just devotion, dedication. Say we need to take this seriously. A generation ago. I don't know. Few young people know the the name Yashica Fisher. I'm not going to put you on them. But I bet Russian official in time in the tear garden Berlin, but that's another story. But you know, he was the before he was the minister, the forerunner of, of, of, of, of Germany. He was one of the leaders of the Green Party. He had a famous quote about 999. And he said, if Bill Gates were German, there'd be no Microsoft. And this was pretty much the consensus before the turn of the century that said, The country is the institutions, the culture, traditions is incompatible with entrepreneurship. Well, this became a challenge to policy, to universities. What do you Christine and just say, what do we see in the early 2000s? You know, it's, it's to say that country embracing entrepreneurship is the country. But certain policy people dead, certain boon to slender dead certain universities. Did we see this diffuse? And you kind of fast-forward today, how did that happen? It took the bled, blood, sweat, and tears of a generation to take the challenge seriously. Can't create new fields, which was entrepreneurship. So it goes back to a Christina's, it, it's an evolutionary process. I've no doubt this is going to become integrated. If it's not an entrepreneurship programs, it may or may not be. That will be someplace else in universities. Training programs that demand from societies there in, at the universities don't need it somebody else? Well, because entrepreneurships two important, still important to society. So how is this going to be solved? I don't know that you're the one who's going to have to figure this out. Ma ha, what do you think about this? Do you see any potential difficulties? I mean, you're the expert on solving these emotional challenges and authentic. Christina, thank you David, for your input from this perspective, the perspective or educators. Now comes the point. When you are inside the lecture role. When you are inside the event, when you face the young entrepreneurs are the nascent entrepreneurs or the students of entrepreneurship programs. And you need to convince them to open up and to listen to their emotions. And it's like, What are you saying? So here's a, here's a big difficulty because you need to convince them in a way or another to open up and to understand that there is an emotional challenge. So the first thing that maybe I do inside the German culture, because they're German culture is a little bit like they don't want to open up easily and show that they have emotional problems are. So you have to talk about cultures first, about the cultural values fors that are you afraid of failure? What can failure mean to you? You started with sort of re-framing, a sort of coaching how to change the belief behind a certain words that are scary for them. So maybe if you say okay, anyone of you can take a risk. What kind of risks you can take, to what extent? And then you will feel this height is behind every assumption. You want to break this in a way or another. So this could be one approach to penetrate the emotional side of entrepreneurs, to open up, to accept, to discuss it. But where can we start? We start from the cultural values in every city because maybe it should go to the US. And you talk about culture, about failure in culture. They said, Oh, cool, failure is one step to learning. It's acceptable there. So that's maybe one difference. Thank you, My ha Maybe am. Now turning to you, Alexander, what would you expect from education, from policies, from initiatives to help you? Thank you. I am married to the first one to turn to the recent comment. It's like like David said, this, this, this working with emotions is all was already happening. Yeah. And in the younger generation, and it's, it's already there. For example, I said I'm teaching at the University of, of AAC, spoken to or teaching a course of leadership and asked prior and to the people, how many of you more deeply into mindfulness and awareness training then just knowing that the bird above 40 percent of the people raise their hand and said, We are already doing constant awareness and mindfulness training by themselves. And if you look into apps like, like Headspace or whatever, Dennis is already out there. And also in the, in the in the startups. I'm, I'm advisory board. They already working with those kinds of of, of X and working with, with their emotion. And it's not, even in Germany, it's like 40 percent, which is in other parts of the world, might be 80%. And so, so it's, it's already there. And, and for one example in my lecture and I tried it and I invited a friend of mine. Quite successful mindfulness coach and she did a meditation during the lecture I said, Okay, let's everybody just like get it, get, get our feelings down. And is it okay if we meditate for just 10 minutes? And it was crazy. We were asking the experience and after this 10 minutes and there were people saying, oh, I was so stressful before with all those those exams coming up and I didn't know and this course, I have to attend this course and all those exams and I have to study and so much and I feel so relieved. It feels very good. And that's that's that's that's what I have what David is saying. It's already happening and and and and as I reckon, like leg. Coming back to your question. For me, it would be great if researchers would start to jump on the train. And as long as it's still like like a regional train catching speed and not already a high-speed train that's moving past because then nobody nobody's going to understand what what's, what's going to happen. Because if we all just sit there and talk about our emotions, I don't know what what's what's going on, What's going to happen then. And I would, I would, I would feel very relieved if research would start to, to jump on that train and also find out goods and loosens and better solutions and and helping with the consequences and giving ideas for the consequences that, that happened with all those, those emotional challenges there. And, and for me personally, it would be, it would be great if it's more integrated from policy could integrate and emotional stability more in their, in their, in their policy making. For, for example, like we have beneficials from, from our from, from the insurance company. If you send, send our present our people to the back training and they know better how to say it and how to stand and how to move during the day. But, but there's no there's no course to send them to emotional training, so we have to do that and our cell. And that's, it is very little incentive out there for, for handling emotional challenges and admitting to have emotions. And we need from policy we need more, more incentives. As far as I'm concerned to how getting everyone on the right track. Do you see any other kinds such incentives are like what could policy do to enhance the emotional health of entrepreneurs? I said, I love you. Good questions All the researchers call. So I think that, that's a great research question. So what incentives could, could work to enhance emotional skills? I think, I think that's, that's, that's perfect Rwanda. And for me I need to think about that a few seconds and then there may be some of the professional thinkers would rather help here. Well, the answers, do it matter what the question is? Are my users always fund more research? So I know the answer. But having said that, I think it's this. I think I am so impressed in a way, going back to the longer view, how policy has actually changed the landscape of entrepreneurship, economy, society all across the globe. It doesn't happen in a second or a day or a week. But, you know, we can see all kinds of, of, of, of changes. You know, if you, you know, in this country, in the United States. There was a sense of being technologically behind In the 1970s, 1980s and needed to accelerate innovation. What do we see? The Bible act as famous Ma, universities more involved in innovation, the Small Business Innovation Research gets to white to get to enable, provide funding for nascent entrepreneurs. I think it's the same kinds of spirit and policies, which is to prioritize emotional health. What does that mean? And germs. Policy instruments. It means not just focusing on instruments for financial instruments, for social capital network GUID, or instruments for helping perhaps with training or to find talent. Eight, human resources, but then also to provide clinics, therapies, education, training. I think that always leads in a way. It's, it's a, it's a public sector. Demand leads then to supply that will come from academic research, but also practitioners. People in the, I don't, I don't, I don't understand emotional health at all. Some people say I don't even have any, every Nancy. But I understand maybe a little how the economy works. And it's a demand-driven economy and in society. So if the demand is there for capabilities and skills or training in bestowing or people do become specialists or experts to weigh Mayas. Then that we will see you people go into that area. We will see these kind of skills bestowed upon entrepreneurs, nascent entrepreneurs. So I think that's where policy, it's not just one instrument, but it's a plethora and say it's a broad-spectrum new instruments to try to shift attention and resources into this aspect of entrepreneurship that we've said has really been overlooked up to now. That's just says to be fair. Policy was very supportive. During the last 20 years in Europe. They spent a lot of money to promote entrepreneurship education at universities. But the question is, how can we go on from this starting point? And therefore, coming back to what Alexander set on, David said. I think there are a lot of important research question, especially what we are talking about today about emotional skills and emotional stability of entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs and even potential entrepreneurs, because not all students will become entrepreneurs. And in our case, so I think there are so many important research questions like which emotional competencies are important for entrepreneurs? What, what's to entrepreneurs really need, our students really need, or how can we as educators, improve our educational approaches regarding on to stabilize the emotional skills of potential entrepreneurs in the future. And therefore, we need, of course, more, more budget and the support of our governments and the UW and also worldwide, I guess. But yeah, To be fair, that they have done a lot in the past, that that what I would like to point out. But I thank you for, for these ideas. How can we go further on from, from this stage? Thank you, Christina. And now looking at the time, I can see that we are almost out of time. So I would like to invite all of you to maybe share a couple of concluding remarks on this topic if you like. Well, I would just like to thank our great panel here and our great chair, Run Young who seems to be able to heard all of these cats of panelists going off in different directions. It's really been enlightening to hear from all of your perspectives and somehow makes me wish. I don't want to complain about Ron. Yes, I wish he given us more time and add more panelists. Because my guesses, a friend of mine, Zoltan notch once said, well, he said discussions either and debates or start them. And my guess is this is the start, not the ending to this issue. Yes, we have now David, a new book picked up with Alexander ma on ya. Yeah, fascinating. I think about a lot of research question. And yeah, it would be good to build. That helps. Good luck. We've discussed today, Kristine, uh, you know what they say? And in Germany in German, knocked him bool is 14. Terminal is still very good point. For me. I would like to say that. Thank you so much for this great panel discussion. It's so very, very interesting and enlightening. And I look forward. That's our next panel discussion, includes some ways of educating entrepreneurs that really take place in different universities and educational programs. And how we thought leaders and influential powers in the society. How we want to help the governmental or the local institutions to change things in saber of entrepreneurial emotional support. Thank you. Everyone saying goodbye or what not. So great with Catherine. Thank you. Thank you for having me and having me here and I learned really are not from from you all and that is really great. You, you, you initiate that and like, like you said, like starting that debate because it's so important that that result is going to address that topic. Holy grail. Great, thanks to one. Yeah, I think you handle that that panel really, really well and it was really, really great and fantastic job. I am deeply impressed and various price times over because you manage it really, really good. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Alexander, for your kind words and also thank you for joining. I had a lot of fun and I think olive fast and also the audience has some key takeaways, which we can now say that think about and hopefully research. So yeah, it was a really great time. Thank you. Get it from my end, too. Thank you so much for being with us this afternoon. Today. This morning. One. Yeah. Thank you. And also a big thank you to the audience for your questions and comments that were also, of course, adding to this conversation. So we hope to see you soon again. Thanks David, but I'm sure you will come up with another entrepreneurship European Encounter and we look forward to that. So wishing you all a good rest of your day and bye-bye.
This series of conversations focused on international inequities and was centered on the United Nations' 10th Sustainable Development Goal: to reduce inequality within and among countries. Among the issues discussed were access to health care in Kenya and Mexico, migration and the urban/rural divide in China, and the challenges posed by resistance to state law and authority on religious grounds. The series was kicked off with a conversation with Pulitzer Prize-winning author Isabel Wilkerson on "Race, Caste and Inequality" and a student-led discussion following the event.
Description of the video:Good morning, everyone or good afternoon as the case, maybe one to welcome you all to our, our third entry in our toward a just society webinar series. This is a webinar series looking at globally qualities and issues of justice around the world. And sponsored by the Office of the Vice President for International Affairs at Indiana University and our Global Gateway series. My name is Tim. Hello, I'm Academic Director of the IU Europe gateway in Berlin. I want to thank all those who helped make this possible from our gateway network on throughout a more undergo Church, pretty harsh. Or Ali, about 100 bucks, former Vice President. I'm very excited today to be collaborating with. I use Center for Religion and the human. They, they do great work and they're very vibrant community. And today our webinar is going to be on religion without the state on issues of Canada, liberal religion will lead to justice. A very interesting topic. And I'm going to turn over 2. The moderator for today's webinar. This is constants jury is chair of the Religious Studies at IU Bloomington. And constants take it away. Wonderful. Thanks Tim. Thanks. Under F of the all the organization and excited. I'm really excited to be part of this panel which began, is a continuation of conversations among various of these panelists in different contexts. And as Tim said, we'll be talking about this question of the challenges posed by illiberal religion to the liberal state. So resistance to state law based in authority grounded in religious claims, what might be called Divine disobedience is a diverse and nuanced phenomenon, one that occurs across the political spectrum from right to left. What new forms of social covenants and communities do these movements contribute to Imagining Justice? In which cases does the discourse of divine disobedience lead to new community formation? Sorts of community formation would we imagine, would want to imagine, are these groups imagining? In what ways do they embody new possibilities for creating common ground? So our speakers, I'll mentioned the names, all four names add that you've seen them, of course, on the publicity. And then I will do introductions. After each talk. We'll keep it short. Each speaker is doing about an eight-minute presentation in order to create time for conversation among them, but especially we hope for questions from the audience as well. So please feel free to put your questions in the Q and a, and there should be time for a lively discussion. Our panelists are Carlos Enrique, not EMI Su CHI, Spencer do, and Jake camera and Carter and the order in which they'll be presenting. So I'll start by introducing Carlos Enrique, who is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University tidiness on Nace. Professor I'm Enrique is written on the role of philosophy in the midst of conflict and how aesthetic practices and collective actions contribute to the creation of political subjects. Today who will be speaking on a case study from 2017, a civic strike on Columbia's Pacific Coast where catholic collective action enacted a relationship to time. Fatima, a memory palace counteracts the liberal states linear sense, progress. Hi class. This is hi, constants. Thank you very much. I am very, very happy and grateful to be participating in this conversation. Only in, uh, people were, got leaps, miraculous time, and spacial politics in a popular uprising in Colombia. Specific literal is the title of my talk. For many columbus of my generation. September 26 of 2000. 16 was one of the most hopeful days in our lifetimes. After one, after four years of negotiations, a peace agreement was signed between the government and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia. The largest and oldest insurgency in Latin America's history. More than 50 years of war appeared to come to an end. This peace process, good place to a time of promise. A sense that there was an opening for structural transformations that move the country towards more egalitarian and just collected forms of government and life. The promise that life among us could be otherwise, but also that the agents so please change could be other ones too. Not just the start to school elites and their technocratic forms of government, but that social grassroots, grassroots movements gaining space and BCP, the public debates, could also have a say that they had never had before inflecting the country's destiny. But in historical events like this one, it is difficult to differentiate the time of promise from the time of victory. And the scene of the signature of the peace agreement was the scene of triumph. These temporality of victory in the widely televised spectacle of peacemaking was only counteract it in a poignant point and yet subtle way by the religious actor in the state. The choir of women singers allow RS of bowhead. Yeah, a small town in the Pacific region of Columbia that suffered in 2000 to one of the most horrific events in the history of this war. The explosion of a bomb inside the local church, where villagers were protecting themselves from crossfire. The Choir perform the traditional genre of the rhythmic spirituality rooted in the Pacific region of Columbia. They allow a funeral chants that breaches the distance between the world of the dead and the world of the living. The chant is a mixture of an ancestral retro, practice of the Afro Columbia communities and Catholic motifs. A mixture that speaks of the affective bonds cultivated between church and people in this region of Colombia. Due to the militant pastoral work on the side of the communities and their struggles, which has characterized the Merced Catholicism cultivated here for decades in the inputs of Vatican Council. In the acquires performance, the woman rejoice, praise, praise, pray, be nouns, demand justice. But most remarkably, by the end of their act. Contest the experience of the time of peace-building that the event itself tended to impose. This was not a time of victory. They sang by the time of trace and prayer. This was not a time of a linear progress that leaves behind an obscure past, but a time of prophetic denunciation and caution. This was not a time subjected to the state's sovereign gaze. But at time in tempted to the peak teams, in morning, they sign. I find the subtle yet forceful dispute over the experience of the time of peace-building performed by the allowed us in the ceremony. A key to think how such a dispute is also integral to social movements that have emerged in the post agreement era as alternative collective agents of peace-building prompted people within political power from the bottom up and in tune with the singularity of the territory's they inhabit. In my current research, I study one of these movements were now in today's civic strike. When I tutor is the main city port of the Pacific region of Columbia. The region where the woman of these choir also come from and write their shares in the social, cultural, and spiritual atmosphere that mergers their voice. The participants, the participants of the civic strike movement, can see if the political process as taking place in a miraculous time. One that contrasts with but does not necessarily exclude the project oriented and linear temporality of state governance. To give just one example of this in his competitor speech, Victor, be dull. And i, for Colombian leader, elected Major or whenever you to rank 2009, CPI, gives a theological political account of the events. Let him to be standing there. It is only the people who got leaves. He says that two extraordinary events took place. First, that 2017 civic strike that. Parallelize the CT for 20 days in a bottom-up induced state of exception with massive and enthusiastic social protists. And then two years after that, the election of one of the movement's leaders, Victor himself as the CPS major. He's words speak of a tense grassroots Oregon, of a tense political theology embedded in a process of grassroots organizing. They speak also to the key role played by the leadership of the local Catholic church in this process. This influence is perceived most starkly in their religious sentiment of the people up when I'm in 2D, which has a distinctive history dating back to pastoral practices in the 60s, 1960s, practices of church immersion with the people in their struggles that have permeated profoundly their spectral memory, as seen in murals like these, one pound in some of its parishes. Depicting the peaker be shook head are the wireless Chicago whose legacy as left profound, effective and political traces in the CPS landscape. Can one think through the miraculous time, this miraculous time of your pricing and the political process, and it's a spatial traces. How does it reflect the promise of peace? Which in the context of Columbia's historical juncture, the promise of peace. Whereas the case of the liberal state deploys a temporality of peace-building as the progress like overcoming of war by piece. The perspective of the social movements, bottom-up, peace-building practice, on the other hand, is that of constant friction among the persistence of new forms of war. And that transformative political work on the ground. That implies increasing cohesion, organizing capacity, and political incidents on the part of marginalized communities. The tragic expression of disentanglement is the systematic assassination of social leaders. Local political processes such as these will become a threat to the dynamics generated by leashed analysts dichotomies and their forms of macro politics. Precisely because of their growing maturity and reach. Latin American feminist thinker lead that say got two, has shown how these new forms of warfare have complex articulations with transnational capitals and new forms of legal and illegal corporations, military, economic, religious. She proposes a politics in a feminine key to resist the patriarchal, racist and capitalist structures and leashed in these new forms of warfare, where the boundary between legal and illegal violence tends to be erased. Another politics which emphasizes a spatial embeddedness over the topic, protection of the state's case. Even if, say, God doesn't elaborate on her work on the religious dimension of this politics. The testimony soap when I went to this emancipatory experienced, evoke a spatial experience of the Debye. I got that leafs with a people in a place. Latin in the materiality of buildings and things and the promise of justice that these spatial density atmosphere shelters. Perhaps these spatial rather than who topic. Politics may allow us to conceive the time of peace-building beyond an economy of victory and defeat, which is none other than the economy that binds together, sacrifice and salvation. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank us much to think about. We turn NADPH as an iMSA key with a tenured research phallus. As a member of CRISPR. Author Islam and American Religion, published in French in 2013 and by Columbia University Press in 2017. Other recent works include and at a co-edited volume that seems relevant to our topic here today, saving the people, how populous hijacked religion. Today she will speak, I'm prophetic anti pastoralism, the case of the Poor People's Campaign and considering specifically its emphasis on moral revival and fusion politics. Professor Mizuki, thank you so much. Constance, thanks to my colleagues and friends today and thanks for January university for organizing this panel, I want to suggest a few, a few remarks based on my field work on the Poor People's Campaign and national call for more revival. That is, campaign launched in 2016 by Reverend Barber. Reverent fear Harris. Reverent fear Harris is a Presbyterian pastor, ordain the poverty initiative in, at the chiral center for religious rights and social justice in New York. And reverend barber is the pastor of disciple of Christ, Christ quantitive Christian church and goals for North Carolina. They launch this movement in 2016 and in order to reenact the 960, a Poor People's Campaign imagined by Martin Luther King before his assassination and then carried on by his allies and friends through the summer of 68 in order to advocate and campaign for social justice, racial justice against poverty and systemic, systemic racism. The official launch of this movement builds on the work of the two, the two pastures that the lead this movement. And it's a very heterogenous, hybrid, complex object that weaves together multiple legacies and multiple geographies of activities, multiple genealogies from Black Prophetic politics too, I protest and social gospel and international women's rates. It brings together multiple networks and activist strategies from civil rights, civil disobedience to homeless unions, advocacy and church occupation. And it merges multiple geographies of activism from Philadelphia and New York, anti-poverty activism to North Carolina civil rights struggle and true South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Complex type of campaign and movement that that seeks multiple goals at the same time, from healthcare to minimum wage to voter registration has been the topic of much media attention in the past years, especially under the Trump era. Barber has been presented as the sort of like new hero of the so-called religious left. A label that I dislike for reasons I can explain later. The campaign has also triggered a lot of questions and criticisms. Most of the criticisms around the campaign are around the fact that it's strategy is to Scatchard, that it seeks to many goals at the same time to be really efficient and that it's six so many things that in the end it achieves nothing. Another line of critique is around the lack of grassroots anchoring. And the fact that despite the claim of the campaign to encourage Grassroots Leadership and grassroots participation, it is very much still a sort of traditional patriarchal cleric lead kind of top-down movement. So I, while I'm very aware of all these critiques that I hear again and again during my research. I want to think bus these critiques and try to understand the specific interventions of the campaign in their own terms, rather than evaluating them against the standards of what a social movement is supposed to be. And through this work, I want to pose the question of whether there is still a space for the prophetic in today's contemporary politics and liberal societies. I read the PPC contribution as a work of more risk signification of American Christianity and as an experiment in ironic prophecy that challenges the store forms of power. I want to look specifically at two points that are, I think are key in understanding the originality of the work of the PPC. One is work of risk signifying Christian nationalism. The other is a work around this notion of fusion politics. Politics. A major goal of the campaign is to shift the narrative around the place of Christianity in the public sphere and to read, signify to save American Christianity that, according to Barbara, has been hijacked by Christian nationalism. In that respect, the campaign very much belongs to this tradition. For this American tradition of, of exegetical, barber describe Tim's half as an American evangelical, a fundamentalism who goes to the scriptures to advocate for social justice. So to that extent, the campaign very much is inscribed in this broader movement of reclaiming Christianity that is situating within the narrative of American and Christian exceptionalism. Because what's at stake is to save America, to save Christianity, to redeem it from its hijackers. But what I find more interesting is that there is also a critique of that very tradition from Hadoop, a double standpoint, the standpoint of theoretical reflection on the limits of Euro centered legacy of strong Christian theologians. And a practical standpoint through this concept of fusion politics, barbers, memoir and ratings reveal a very important journey away from some foundational Christian theologians through a questioning. The limits of their contribution to social and racial justice. In the third reconstruction. A book he published in 2016, he admits that scholars like me, we're in spidery, inspired his thinking. But he also quickly came to question the narrow understanding of action enabled by people like nib or in terms of success or failure. Likewise, drawing upon theologians Stanley harvest, he also acknowledges the key role of the church community is witnessing, but he immediately emphasizes the need to go beyond this understanding of the church. Speaking of his experience with Greenleaf church in North Carolina, reverend Barber calls for elaborating a new imagination that is not restricted to the norms of white Western Christianity. He says, I quote, as much as, sorry. He says, I quote, I appreciate the longing for an alternative sociological reality. Words, God's justice and peace are experienced. Yet, I was disappointed by an imagination that could only anticipate that experience in the traditional spaces and practices Of Compromise, Western Christianity had not the liberating communities of the plantation south arising in the bush arbors where there were no ordained clergy to celebrate the Eucharist or steeple to designate hallowed space. End of quote. From a practical point of view, the campaign also plays a major role in subverting, displacing this exception that is narrative of American Christianity and American nationalism. Fusion politics in the campaign is understood, has a place both as a strategy of coalition building throughout very different categories of the American society. It's also, in my understanding, a ritual, a methods, a norm. It is much more than a strategy. And most importantly, it's an open-ended process to that extent, I think it plays a very distinct role from other concept like the beloved community or the ecclesia that I can speak to that later. But what I find really interesting is that while fusion politics may appear to share with the liberal ideal of civil religion a similar interest and bridging relationships and bringing together different groups of people. It, most, mostly it rippled, it resizes this idea of a covenant underlying civil religion in a way that's potentially more subversive and pushes the boundaries of who is deemed to be deserving of participating in this covenant. Civil religion is premised on the illusion of the possibility of a dialectical reconciliation of differences. Whereas fusion politics maintains the reality of heterogeneity and differences. It doesn't seek to surpass these differences through sort of dialectical process. So to that extent, the PPC ideal or fusion politics offers a way more radical subversive alternative to the worn-out model of civil religion. The racial blind spot of which has been amply commented on, among others, by by Jay who is with us here today. So I went to, I went to conclude by a few remarks about how a, I interpret the work of the PPC against all the critiques I mentioned earlier on, wild Barber and his allies at the PPC are often questions for reenacting and what is called an outdated model of prophetic arithmetic politics based on a sort of hierarchical, patriarchal, church-based forms of leadership. I suggest that such rapid critique Smith's actually the specificity of the campaigns than convention. And I read, in my word the civil disobedience, more revival and fusion politics rituals allowed by this campaign, not as a perigee of the past or has a similar crime, but as a form of contract conduct in the sense that Foucault gifts to this notion of counter conduct. A two, to understand types of religious practices that were oriented against the pastoral mode of power. In reenacting forms and aesthetics, forms of the past. Barber doesn't seek full addition to these forums, but he implements a type of ironic prophetic style that creates a gap. The hegemony, pastoral modes of morality that characterizes, I argue not just Christian nationalism, but also some popular forms of protests that borrow from a secularized form of Protestantism that are present in more popular movements, I would argue such as BLM. So where is the countering part of the PPC conduct conduct aspect? I think it is in its sort of flinch, unflinching commitment to condemning and working against poverty as a systemic structure of inequality. Jesus was a socialist, barber, repeats on and on. And like some protest movements that have become so popular that they become a brand, the PPC is in its high radical, hieratic and categorizing form is not easily appropriated. It's not easily absorbed by neoliberal regimes of political consumptions. It is not brand double seconds. Its attachment to Christian ritual and scriptures. Through these attachments, the PPC is also a counter conduct vis-a-vis secularized forms of atonement that seek easy and cheap way towards reconciliation through personal create trainings and emotional re-education. Through its deep commitment to advocating for what is rate. It is a counter conduct vis-a-vis the moralism of Christian nationalism, Christian nationalist, my quote, barber says so much about the issues where the Bible says so little, but they speak so little about the issues where the Bible says so much, end of quote. Foucault wrote in 1978 and security 2012 and population. There used to be revolutions, a anti feudal revolutions, but there never was. And T per store Revolution. Pastoral power hadn't, had yet, hadn't been through yet a process of revolution. I read the BBC as this form of anti per store or counter conduct that creates the condition of possibility of an outside space. Another type of political experience that escapes the play of dominance and opposition, whereby opposition forces always seemed to be somehow recuperated by liberal regimes of governmentality. And I suggest that it's also this outsiderness of the PPC that may very well make it an efficient, But yet I think it does, it, it does give it a role, sort of symbolic rolling in, in allowing for that outside space to co-exist. Thank you and I look forward to your questions. Thank you. Nadia is wonderful. We will turn now to spencer do with religion teaching fellow at Wittenberg university and affiliated faculty at The Ohio State University. So Spencer's the author of the Alawites, race and law and the religions of noble draw Lee published in the class 200 series at the University of Chicago Press and an award winning book. It received actually the Al Roboto prize from I wanted to get this detail right because it's a great, a great honor from the journal, Journal of African religions. So congratulations on that award. It's really terrific book. And he will be speaking today on move the Philadelphia base natural living movement founded by John Africa, violently suppressed by state action, culminating in the 995 police bombing. Move residences. Spencer. Thank you. It's it's it's an honor to be here, thanks to IU and to the Berlin gateway. It's an honor to think with such inspiring colleagues. I want to talk today about move, founded around 972 in Philadelphia by John Africa. Move was nature-based religion of life. As one move person, writes, the word move is not an accurate and it means exactly what it says. Everything that's alive Moves movement is the principle of life moves. Belief is life. Move people live communally in two houses in Philadelphia and in short-lived homes. And Rochester, new York, and Richmond, Virginia, living without electricity or plumbing, growing their hair out, eating natural foods, often raw, shooting, raw garlic for health, raising their children who were little or no clothes outside. What they saw as the indoctrinating anti-life education system of the state. And feeding animals from dog. Cats to rats, to roaches, and cysteine. Indeed, that the categorical distinction between human and animal was faults. All life comes from one source, from God, moves person rights, and all life is interconnected and equally important. Since likes what's important, move opposed anti-life practices and logics of what John Africa called the System, society, civilization, science, industry, and the thinking on which such aspects of the system depend both categorization and separation. And the quote, worked mentality of techno optimism, that scientific meddling can somehow correct the pollution caused by scientific meddling. For instance, move understood. Move understood life to be revolutionary, both in the sense of being constantly in a revolution or movement. And in the sense that revolution, quote, isn't an activity predicated on conscious recognition of how rotten and enslaving the system is. People must fight the system if they ever went to free themselves from endless suffering and oppression. This meant for move people a certain kind of diet and lifestyle and communal living as a family. But it also meant active protest, often in aggressively provocative ways, disruptions thick with profanity at circuses and zoos, pet stores and school board meetings, as well as at their homes where they displayed weapons. Move was thus illiberal and it's incitements. Neighbors were disturbed by the noise, the animals, the militant rhetoric and illiberal. And it's defiant opposition to the state as governance, as a way of life, as a structure of power, and as a mode of thinking. The purpose of this panelists to explore alternatives to the liberal state offered by radical instantiations of religion. Otherwise possibilities on stately possibilities. Too often protests against the liberal state or calls for alternative versions of such a state rooted in different versions of state logic. The armed assault on the US Capitol on January 6th, for instance, might seem, quote, on stately in the common sense, some of the varied vandalism was the smearing of feces on the walls. But the event was nonetheless resolutely stately in its logic and goals. The insurgents didn't seek to destroy the US government. They sought to restore it. Whose house? They chanted our hats. The nefarious ness of liberalism resides not only in its predication on exclusion and control, but on the ubiquity of its logic such that even when the states dependence on violence and othering is recognized, responses that seek to reject such logic tend instead to reiterate, to demand a more capacious or inclusive or more aggressively policed and exclusive status quo. This is not the case with move. When move people declared quote, We don't believe in politics at all. They meant that they refused to believe it except participate in. Or replicate the logic of the liberal state. Their religion was a way of living outside such a framework. We know that the current political system results are clean, righteous example and want to stop us from exposing their corruption even if they have to kill us. One move spokesperson wrote, just as Jesus was labeled the radical and persecuted to death. We expect it and we are prepared for it. You've heard of move you've heard of them because of the consequences of this stance on May 13th, 1985, the Philadelphia Police Department, in conjunction with city, state, and federal agencies, assaulted the home of the move community, declaring themselves through loudspeakers with the words, this is America. Some 10 thousand rounds were fired at 13 people in the move house before a police helicopter dropped a bomb on the house, destroying it. The subsequent conflagration permitted to rage unchecked by city authorities, destroyed 61 homes, 11 move people were killed. Five of them children. This is America. Indeed. I should note that this was the second move house destroyed by the city of Philadelphia, the first bulldozed in the wake of mass arrests in 1977. Ramona Africa, the loan adult survivor of the 995 bombing, scarred for life from severe burns, insist that it was moves belief in the sanctity and all importance of life on all levels without exception, that put us in direct conflict with the system that we're living on. A system that doesn't care anything about life. The goal of this panel is to focus on religious alternatives to political liberalism as potential resources for rethinking our collective lives. Move, offers such a resource or SWOT, also serving as unnecessary cautionary tale about the relentless violence of the state of islands that move people insist can only be described as profane. As long time move persons Sue Africa on the right here set in 2017. The state as a mother fucker, fucking over Mother Nature, mother life, repeating a basic tenet of the community. She notes that such language is considered vulgar, but quote, you don't use a pretty word to describe the profane situation. You use the profane word to describe the profundity. This she concludes, might be jarring, but only because it offers, quote, too much, much true for the system. Such linguistic realism, or I should say an attempt at linguistic realism is a hallmark of moves, philosophy. Part of the broader attempt to think otherwise, the system and thus rethink life itself to imagine and instantiate a true alternative, epistemological and ontological beyond what we know as politics. Thank you. Thank you Spencer. I am now going to introduce SHA Cameron Carter at Indiana University. Professor Carter is in our department. Steady. And UB and is co-director with Winnie Sullivan up I use Center for Religion and the human, the sponsor today's panel. He is author of Race, a theological account, and the forthcoming Religion of whiteness, an apocalyptic lyric. And the title of his talk today as I believe it will be appearing shortly on a presentation as Bonhoeffer, fascism and the Caribbean geographies, illiberal religion. Professor Carter, I'm working on can you hear me now? Great. Let me see if I can get my screen to share and do this the right way. I hope you can see this. Yeah, that's great. Fantastic. Okay. So thank you very much for convening this conversation, and I'm grateful to be a part of the conversation. The papers of the presentations here have been magnificent and almost feel like I want to say anything because I just want to lay continue to taking what my colleagues have said. But I'm on the schedule, so I guess I better say something. And the something I bet I want to talk about comes out of one of the chapters of this book that I've finished called the religion of whiteness and apocalyptic lyric. One of the chapters is on a Christian theologian named digit Bonhoeffer. And as you can see from the title I've had, have his name in the title. I'll say more about Bonhoeffer right now. But the second word in the title, fascism really cuts to the Quick of, of Bonhoeffer in the mid-twentieth century in Germany, he was concerned with the fascism that was happening in mid-twentieth century, the mid-twentieth century West in his homeland of Germany. And because of the kinds of things that we are dealing with contemporarily, which has been called, I think rightly a moment of Neil fascism. Bonhoeffer struggle against the fascism of his time in the 1930s and 1940s, can have some lessons, offer some lessons for us today. But the third term and my titled Bonhoeffer fascism and the Caribbean, is to situate the provocation at confronted on Bonhoeffer, the challenged at confronted him in his effort to engage the problem of fascism by way of his encounter with, shall we say, the Caribbean. And in this presentation as, um, I'll develop it, you'll see in a moment, the Caribbean is both an actual geographical location. That ball hovering culture, though often Dietrich Bonhoeffer for all of his on well-known status both in Christian and in Christian circles is rarely thought of in terms of the moment in which he went to visit a Lutheran outpost in Cuba. And my claim here is the understanding that cube in a moment, that Caribbean moment we'll throw into stark relief, the kind of challenge that Bonhoeffer had to contend with when. Efforts to rethink religion, to, um, to think the kind of internal dimensions of a certain kind of religiosity. It was fueling the fascism of his moment by way of encountering an alternative modality of, shall we say, religion at the Caribbean becomes a site of that from the Caribbean, we'll also talk about his sojourn into Harlem. But the Caribbean is the kind of focal point that kind of opens up the alternative geography of religion that I want to continue that Bonhoeffer is dealing with the subtitle of the presentation geographies of illiberal religion is precisely onto the point of the question of geography, the question of space. How we think the liberality of religion, how we think the liberal state is all bound up with the geographical, in the spatial imaginaries that we've been positioned within. And in many respects we find it so difficult to think beyond to ask the question. Is there a way to think beyond the presumptions of the liberal state, beyond the presumptions of the, of the liberal humanist tradition in its discourses of rights, for example, the challenge of thinking beyond the presumptions of, of liberalism has everything to do with the kind of common sense that is now been put in place about how we even think about liberalism itself and the ways in which our thinking about religion has been sutured to the logic of liberal, liberalism itself. In many respects. I'm going to be continuing here today that Bonhoeffer, by way of his sojourn into black Harlem in New York City. By way through that encounter. His other kind of encounters with other points of geographical points of contact in the new world, one of which was the Caribbean. In Cuba, he was confronted with the possibility of thinking the alternative, let's put it that way. And the alternative he hears in Black be a spork life on black social life as an illiberal performance of life together, of living this, of living together. That was the fundamental challenge of Bonhoeffer and not to bury Li. I'm going to argue that while they're encounter proved very important for him, while he was able to take certain lessons from that encounter and have them fuel his being a defender of the Jewish people against anti-Semitism bet in Germany, back in Western Europe. Notwithstanding all of that, I will contend and argue that still at its most basic level, hall first encounter with illiberal blackness, with illiberal black social life. In effect failed. He did not undergo a sufficient enough apprenticeship, shall we say, to the illiberal a t of Black social life, of blackness, of stately black religion, of black illiberal religion. And so that's the kind of coring in a nutshell. What I'm going to talk about. And I can already see that notwithstanding everything that I wrote, I'm going to probably be talking off the fly because I just I didn't read anything that I can see only after him and I slapped me to read as you guys may have. So let me just walk you through a few of the few slides that I've put together to begin to fill this out entirely interrupted. You want to do it again? Just give me 1 second to say. I want to remind everyone to be feel free to be thinking about putting questions in the Q&A. So you have now at some time, I apologize for interrupting you today. So as as j finishes up as well to be thinking about Q&A questions. All right. Thanks. I'm turning it back over to you. Sure. Thank you. So I want to begin by backing up and just say a couple of things. Offer a couple of bullet points about who Dietrich Bonhoeffer was. I don't want to simply assume that we know who he was though the 20th century, he was a quite significant public figure and not just a Christian ethicist and theologians. So who was Dietrich Bonhoeffer? The first thing is just his days. He's born in 1906. He dies in 1945. He's born in Poland. And he dies in floss Ember concentration camp in Germany. He dies because I'm one of the last acts of Adolf Hitler was to personally signed the papers as it were for Bonhoeffer execution because of, because Bonhoeffer basically committed treason, it will be our language against his fatherland, the German state, by funneling information, he was a government civil servant, worker at the high level of the German government, fully information to the Allied powers during World War II, the information proved essential to the Allied powers ticking down, hitler became to light near the end of the complete fall of the Nazi regime. And one of the last eggs of Hitler was too. Ok. The execution of Dietrich Bonhoeffer as he was held in a concentration camp, flossing floss and Berg concentration camp. The third thing I will say is that for Bonhoeffer, he saw himself as doing this work, working against his own German bomb homeland, against that or Nazi regime under Hitler, because he saw himself as defending the Jewish people against the German antisemitism. But even more. The other reason in which it was, for which he was doing this is that he saw him some more deeply as defending the West, particularly by trying to rehabilitate what heats understood as its theological foundations. Establishing a more for firm basis for human rights are more firm basis for inclusive citizenship. And then finally, a more firm basis for the duties and the responsibilities of the state to ensure human rights and inclusive citizenship. These are his reasons, their theological reasons for what he did. The next thing I want to say is that the arm that is backstory is that Bonhoeffer is born right on the cusp of World War One and comes of age during World War II. He has a brother that dies and he sees the ravages that World War One has on the west and on Germany itself. He saw that in the aftermath of World War one, that he saw the beginnings of a post-World War one. European, western fascism. He's, he's living in, he seeing any merge. How does Germany response, response and being defeated in World War One, they consolidate into a nationalism trying to shore up the German national state. He sees this problem. And finally, where he wants to do is he wants to rethink the religious and theological architecture of that very fast. Now, very, very quickly again, Bonhoeffer, when he's being educated, he begins in Germany. I don't know if you can see in the upper center I have a circle around Berlin. He begins his education in a series of German universities. The long and short of it is, but a time when Tom ball hovers about 21, he's now only finished the first stage of doctoral work, but he's done the second stage as well, qualified to teach. But between him finishing the doctoral work, he interestingly takes a trip down to Rome. I have a number two on the screen down to Rome to begin. So again, geographically recharge the path of, of the West and try and rehabilitate its foundations. He visits Rome, he visits, um, on the, on the Vatican and all of the great monuments of the foundations of the West, as the West had been centered around the Mediterranean during that trip point number three, he goes to North Africa and visits places in Tunis. And his encountering North Africans there, he goes back to Berlin, finishes his degree, and before he takes a trip over into Harlem, new York City in the United States. Point number 4. He goes to Barcelona and spends a little bit of time there. Now, the significance of this geography that by the time he just the Barcelona, he is spatially remapping the unfolding of Europe's going into the Atlantic world and the beginnings in the 15th and 16th century of Europe. Not just being centered around the Mediterranean, but Europe being the kind of kind of outpost entry leaping off point into the Atlantic world. That's what I have in this next slide here, the Atlantic world. If we go over to the United States, part of the Atlantic world, point number one, he finds himself in New York City as a doctor, a post doctoral student at the Union Theological Seminary. While he's there by day doing his post-doc work. By night, on Wednesday nights in on the weekends, he hath, he said the Abyssinian Baptist Church, I kinda flagship Church of black Christianity, if not black religiosity during the era of the late 1920s and the Harlem Renaissance. During up, during the semester between the semesters or the fall and the spring. Put number 2, he goes down into Cuba to visit a Lutheran missionary outposts. There is not a lot of research around this, but my claim is that during that time in Cuba, he's getting a further apprenticeship into the nature of black religion, particularly now in The Caribbean. So that black religion is not just a stately practice of the black church in North America, but now it's been expanded out to the Caribbean. He comes back to Berlin, comes back to New York City. And then at the end of his term to 40, goes back to Germany. He scoots over number 3 to Chicago. It gets a car. He, any French friend of his genre, sir, get a car, they drive to Chicago and infant Chicago, point number four down to Mexico. They drive, do self and drive into Mexico and visit the Aztec Ruins. Again, this is a crucial moment because bone offers being confronted with the, the, the visible remains of colonial conquest. He then from point number 4 and Mexico and the Aztec Ruins heels, they're dry through the deep south. Seeing the lynching that is happening of black people in the cell, makes his way back to New York and then gets on a bull, goes back to Germany. Now, to wrap this up, my point in all of this is that Bonhoeffer at this point is confronted with how to rethink religion when he's in Germany. Religion is a function of the state. When he comes to the US, he's confronted with Black Religion in Harlem. Is it to a function of the state? Well, but a tiny gifts to Cuba and then the Aztec Ruins. It can't just be read as a function of the state. My claim it is gone an illiberal direction and bone offer will have to contend with will keep advanced a religiosity. It is of the state, whether it is illiberal in the longest are shorted. The story is he breaks in the direction of the state and is a whole more story about that. But you can read anymore chapter to the book. I hope it is basically sets up the challenge that Bonhoeffer he has because he's really confronted a hinge himself from his own whiteness in the area MSM That's grilled him in a certain kind of speak MY religious practice. Okay. Yeah, that's right. That's a perfect, almost a cliffhanger though, as you say it told us what happens. But I think that is a cliffhanger for us to like. What is it to break toward the state? What is it to break from the state? So we have a lot of really interesting terms that could be thinking with together. I think all of us, as we move back into opening it up for conversation and maybe I'll just say a couple of things I hear that you all might think together about. And then we can open up for other questions. Again, to encourage people who are here listening, to feel free to put questions in the Q and a. So I think maybe at first we could start because of course, as we saw, we had actually was terrific. Also J for you to have all the max. But we started with Carlos and and and Colombia, but then we were very much sort of US focused, though. J reminds us the ways in which that is never only the US, but Nadia brought up American exceptionalism and the question of The ways in which the restoration of America is understood to be. Ways in which it doesn't, doesn't factor in to possible movements. And that's one way to think about the state. So that reminded me to think it ask you, Carlos, and the ways in which whether the state and you perceive an alternative to the state in this miraculous counter experience. But I wonder if there is any way in which that question of you proceeded in terms of breaking with the idea of linear progress, right? Mistakes, temporality. Is there a way in which Colombia and the imaginary factors into the imaginary there? And I wonder than to the ways in which I guess actually spends her days America factor in at all As and a mat and the imaginary of move up but the mother fucking state. In other words, what ways sort of hidden or explicit is American exceptionalism kind of key to some of these American based question, America-based questions. So that I guess ways in which American exceptionalism, arts or its absence might change the possibilities of illiberal religion. That's sort of one possible question, but then also yeah, so we'll start there and then I have a follow up to that event. And if we have other questions that follow until bring them in. So Carlos, maybe we'll start with you. Yes. Thanks, Constance, and thank you very much. I really, really enjoyed and learned a lot from from all the presentations. Yes. Very briefly, I would just say perhaps perhaps two things to your question. One is yes, Definitely them. The peace agreement signature. The scene that I ping in which we think Colombia is a moment of of, of refounding the nation. No, it's a moment of refounding, torn apart society. No. So, so, so of course the, the, the national, the imagination of the nation plays an important role in this story. But then, of course, add it becomes a site of, of contention and struggled. And I think perhaps what are these very interesting of your question is to think how contention regarding what does the time of peace building mean? How, how, how, how would this experience, which is a site of conflict, also has to do of course, with different imaginaries of the nation. And perhaps the Pacific region of Columbia. And all these spiritual social atmosphere traversed by the most horrific histories of violence since. And I was thinking about that listening today, since the conquest of the Americas, right? And the, the, the, the, the choir of women when they kind of receipt NiFi. The, does the time of peace-building mean they, they start by re, signifying what is the time of violence that they are demanding justice? Vis-a-vis the time of violence that are demanding justice we eat and they trace it back 500 years ago right into their songs, right? That the history of violence for them is the history of the, of, of, of colonization. So I guess that there is a colonial possibility of reimagining the nation in this alternative experience, right? And, and that's one thing. The other thing is that I would say is that It's interesting how I see kinda like two forms of outside goodness, right, of religion, PCP, the liberal state. In Spencer's presentation, I feel that that is kind of like an exit from the state, right? Whereas in the US and my presentation, I think it's more about an inside and outside negotiation, right? And that's why the, the, the, the study, the study case I'm talking about is also interesting because there is, there is, there is the wager for, for another form of cover of local government coming from the rest dress reach movement. But that implies also perhaps are re-imagining absorber rarely the right and under God made. But there is these inside, outside the liberal state, the state string. Okay, thank you. Not able to speak to the eye. I actually had a question for Spencer and Carlos, if that's okay, Constance, I'm a I mean, most of the cases your presented are absolutely fascinating. And, and they speak to that, that strategy of imagining an alternative to the liberal state. But the question that comes to mind when, when I, when I listen to both presentations is, what, what are your, how hard you think one could sort of conceptualize the ways in which we could think about these oppositions, these movements of alternatives. Alternatives without, without sort of falling into the trap of this category of the emancipatory subject of the Revolution. Because I, I struggle with this in my, in my work on, on, on these, on these sort of movements that challenge the liberal state in various contexts, the Muslim world on the order you wives. And, and I find that it's very easy to sort of we re, re, appropriate, recuperate and, or analysis this, this sort of massive norm that it's very, very difficult to do away with the sort of immense the battery subject of history that either we, we used to put in the sort of secular modernist teleology and, and now we're sort of Rehab 1 or maybe displace it in sort of alternative spaces. But I think that it's, it's a major obstacle to actually describing these movements and thinking through these, these, these sort of different areas of investigation. So I don't know if that's clear, but I would I would love to hear sort of how how you've been dealing with with these sort of method issue in your own rating? Yeah, and then I have a comment for J, but I can come back to that later. Thank you. If I can take a stab at I think both of these together, right? So show constancies. Question greatly, densities. What degree is American exceptionalism still around? And, and, and a factor to factor, we're wondering to what degree does it for you folks? So one of the reasons I wanted to talk one of the reasons I wanted to talk about move as part of this panel is because I'm deeply, deeply pessimistic about the possibilities of escaping state power, right? Both the violent actual power of the state to kill you and bulldoze your corks. But also the, maybe we could say etiological. I think we could certainly say mythological power of the state. And one of the, I mean, move for me as a cautionary tale on, on multiple levels tour, there's the story of police power, but there's also the story of how, how successful is this radical philosophy of language that attempts to break with a grammar that they take to be itself constraining and oppressive. And this goes beyond same motherfucker, right? This, this goes into like critiquing verb forms and subject, OBJ, object, agreement, et cetera. That's just the easiest one to say. And it's also arguably the one that sounds perhaps most adolescent and fallible, which I think is also useful. I don't think we're going to counter the police power of the state by calling police any sort of profane names. So, so here's my template and answer. Sorry, this is taking so long. If. Move people hadn't died in that balmy. If move people hadn't been to use a word that, that Carlos use, sacrificed are part of this economy of sacrifice. I don't know how that history would have gone. I'm interested, for instance, in the way that moves people engage in legal actions in, in, in courts with, I think, incredible finesse. But a finesse that often falls back on a script of American exceptionalism. So that when they're in the courtroom, They're talking about what America should be and what the legal system should be in alignment with natural law. That it seems to me is a bit of a contradiction. Now, that's interesting to think. I hope you're going to think then about because in some ways, but they're also doing that counter, well, be the embodiment of an emancipatory religious subject, right? Because they're presented as an alternative to yeah, Although I, I I guess I want to consider what the absolute alternative two is, right? I mean, I think there's a way in and move mythology where the absolute alternative two is the corpses that get bulldozed. And importantly, the court does in that second house that get bulldozed such that the forensics of the scene is erased. And police claimed that they can't always sort out which you're human bones, which are animal bones. So i'm, I'm, I'm concerned with the way that move might really depend upon a logic of revolutionary suicide. There's, there's an argument for move people that we wanted to survive, we didn't kill ourselves. There's also some pretty heavy documentation I was going through the FBI file last night of folks in advance of this thing saying, we're going to burn ourselves up and burn you up with us, including Roman Africa. But, but, but if I could just say thirty-seconds more an indirect response to naughties question. I think there's a logic within moves philosophy that says, we can avoid this emancipatory subject position by identifying ourselves not via the separate category of human. So that we are like our brothers and sisters, the roaches. And I think this language of our insect brothers and sisters, it is an attempt to do that. Does it succeed? I I've gotta go with no, but but I I think it's a kind of wrestling with that privilege and at the subject position under one way we think about what you're talking about with move and maybe would not, he is getting enough barriers. Perhaps the contradiction. The tension, if not the contradiction that we see with move between, with their name is about between movement and stasis, right? I mean, it is. In other words, their name seems to suggest a mode of practice that is constantly in movement. And yet in order to make the claim that it wants to make, if sometimes falls into a stasis of the grammar of the state. In order to almost like deploy that grammar back against the stake. In S. The kinda like what I'm calling attention between movement up a kind of anti-politics of movement and a politics of state, of stasis, or a politics of the exception in order to sort of hold America account on its own terms and move in. That regard is not like unique. I mean, minis, say, First Nations groups have had to mobilize the rhetoric of the state in order to like pressure the state back against itself. And it's precisely that attention. What would it take to really realize apocalypse is maybe another way to ask the question, right? And I think with smooth, there's also a trajectory where they move away from the teleology of, of, of apocalypse. So shall we move in it's original instantiation is dedicated to simply being alive, right? It's reduced in, in, in, in very basic biological terms to John Africa. After 1985, move becomes, I think, and increasingly domesticated kind of, kind of even bourgeois movement of legal protest, right? So that, so that when you see move people today, these middle aged folks doing the, doing the lectures target. It's a very different it's a very different community to very different action. Does that make sense? An amine it? And the goal is very clear, like, let's get these people out of prison. It seems much narrower than the original goal, which is, let's liberate all zoos, pet shops, and prisons. Which is, which is another way of the state being victorious, it seems to me, right? Because the state actually successfully re-framed the purpose and goal of Carlos. I am very etched in your answer to an audience question, but I do want to get some questions from the audience as well. So maybe it'll take this question that is addressed to Professor Carter, pessimism or zucchini. And this is a question about how imaginaries about geography can disrupt political category. So as he says, the questioner says you both namespace geography in your papers. I'm interested in connecting your topics in this way. Can you each say more about how a shift imagined geographies or spatial imaginaries, happy want to term it can disrupt the political categories that shaped religious and secular liberalism unproductively. January, I take that first. Sure. I'll try. I guess what I guess what I'm proposing here is that what we have to understand the emergence of the modern category of religion as bound up with space. Because there's no getting around it. And i'll, I'll go even further and make this statement that space itself is religiously constituted. And to be more precise, the geography that we're now sort of presume the logics of the Western world in which globality is thought within the, under the presumptions of the rightness, if not the righteousness of western ideals. That, that geography, geography of those ideals come online through religion. Religion being deployed in, constituted in kind of coloniality and anti-blackness. The category of religion is not innocent, is nothing natural about it. The way we discourse about it is the result of a long history that now seemingly is naturalized and common sense. What I tried to do vis-a-vis Bonhoeffer would say that Bonhoeffer was Bonhoeffer, it wants with your tracing that geography and in the retracing, the very retracing he was doing that confronted by an alternate geography, right? Sylvia winter calls this alternate geography demonic ground is to geography Shakespeare would call as aligned with cycle racks in the, in the, in the island of The Tempest. And her son is there. But my point is that there's an alternative geography and the alternative ways of imagining our spatial relations. When they bump up against the normative spatial relations get red as demand, which is to say bad religion. When we, when I talk about illiberal religion and I think it's in the air of our conversations, in the, in of us being together this morning in this webinar. When I talk about on illegal religion, we are, we're surfacing the spatial logics of a presumed common sense around religion and try to think the alternative that gets disavow and repressed. But that is also conditioning are thinking of space and religion. Hope it helps. And my discourse around Black be a spork speciality as alternative religious performance. Write a kind of paradoxical religious performance, insofar as it's the practice of religion. That is, is the critique of the normative forms of religion as we think about them, is what's at stake when we talk about il, liberality. So alternative speciality is key to this possibility of alternative indeed navigated. You want to speak to that question? Yeah. So in the case of the People's Campaign, what I find relevant to this conversation is the question of scale. So 111 critique I always hear when I, when I mentioned I work on their campaign is that while they're not a mass movement. And I'm like, Yes, I'm so white. So just like you need that, just because you're not a mass movement wherever that means, doesn't mean these other phenomena cannot express rather than produce some effects. And what, what I, what I find intriguing and interesting in, in the strategy of the campaign related to what I what I was mentioning earlier for my attempted reading it as a counter conduct is that it it does It does inhabit this tension between the sort of claim that at some point they may, they may become that form that is very recognizable to sense a sort of secular, liberal sensitivity of a mass social movement. But at the same time they are very, the participants in the campaign I've spoken with are very comfortable with this notion that there are more remnants and that you don't need to be a mass movement in order to be a witness to some, some. So they use this and they use it. They don't just use it. They, they have with this vocabulary of the sort of, the more witnessing, the more RAM and that doesn't, that sort of gives them a freedom towards this notion that you do need to have like a territorial conquest of the whole space in order to, to, to produce some outcomes. And The related to that is also the question of temporality that also echoes the remarks Carlos made about you, made about your, your the case, the case of the one of them taught us civic strike, which is that they inhabit a time which is sort of and coupled with this pressure of efficiency and not like the next election or the next. And of course they do take this into a gang, but the inscribe their, their strategy in the sort of long GFA of sort of messianic times. And that, I mean, that, that type of argument, IF, because the campaign mixes together sort of secular atheist mind, kind of activist with more different sort of believers. And what I notice is that the sort of more atheists, secular activist, are often looked down on this type of argument and they're like, Yay, Yeah, they say that, but it's not, it just doesn't make sense. And I sort of struggled with, with this type of dismissive reflection which I, which I actually think is very much present and sort of the social science of religious organizations. And so yeah, I don't want to talk too long, but I think this reflection on geography and space is also very much related to this question of temporality that was introduced by Carlos. I think rightly to better, broader way to ask that you had in mind with the American exceptionalism. Hush, it's really terrific question. We had another question that I think goes to maybe speaks to the potential limits of this notion of illiberal. And we can all talk about other terminology we might want to use. But this question about the fact that this sort of thinking here today in this panel about illiberal religion is at a time when, for example J, you brought up the idea that fascism is something that you are, you, are you agrees would be rightly applied in many cases. But in any case, the rise of liberalism in, in states. And so as the person says here, challenges to the liberal order are coming from the state, not an opposition to it. Now, if you agree with that and that's the premise of the question, what does this mean for the future movements like milk or other forms of elaborate religion? If the state is less labor, all, are there fewer grounds to challenge from the outside? You may want to start as our class. Yeah, I might jump there and connect also with a, with a question that not erased. Well, I don't agree with the premise of the question. I would say I think that the let's say Neil facies that he was talking about has a direct genealogical connection with liberal modern state. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't say there is a discontinuity there. I would say that it's an exacerbation of a historical forms of structural violence that have to do with the structure of the history of the liberal state. And, and then, and then there is, there is a genealogical link between these, these, these new seasons that we see researching and the liberal state. So that would be my answer to the question. And that has to do with that, with that, with the way in which history of the Libra state is the history of racism and colonialism. And is the history of a normative conception of the human that has been extremely violent. And, and at the history of our world is the history of the persistence of that, of that violence I would say. And so that speaks also to the question of, of now the amputees, this modern ideal of the emancipatory subject we tease, I think. And which is tied to a modern conception of the human to a, to a liberal humanism as days, as they said, no, I think I'm a modern conception of the human that Spencer said is being challenged here also by the destabilization of the border between human and animal. In my, in my case, study, is destabilized by the frontier between the dead and the living. And then I think there is something very interesting in what, in what is talking about resisting this idea of efficacy, right? Because this idea of political efficacy has to do with the idea of a political subject of history, as Nadia said, which is thought as victorious, which is only validated in the sense of victory, right? And, and so I, I would say that in my case study, coming back to NATO's question, these political subject, even if, if I speak about the people. And again, I will come back to the question of space because it's, it's, it's not a, it's not a universal people pad is not a particular people either. It is a localized people, but who struggle is not circumscribed to a specific place. Because of the globalized relations of power in contemporary capitalism, right? Among other things. And the fact that the violence is that the software that place are tied to the dynamics of global capitalism. So even if there is the category of the people, I would say, not only the, not, not only more morning as, as, as a key political effect, right? Which, which resists that victorious character of them are the MSE potteries modern subject. But also, I would say, is this these, let's say performance of wounded knees, right? Of wounded miss as, as, as not something that politics has to overcome. But it's something that politics has also two, to shelter, right? And, and, and to, to, to leave from in the struggle structure. So I would say that at just want one regarding space, I would also say it's it's not about, I think it's very important what Jay says about the geographies, colonialist and racist of the category of religion. But I also think there is the question of space in these other sense of, let's say, a local lived experience, right? And, and, and I think, well, I think the notion of micro politics of Foucault is also interesting in the sense of how do we appreciate these types of, of, of ruptures, of, of, of, of, of, of transformative forces at these local, local scale, right? So, so this spatial also as an attentiveness to, to, to that local character. And for me, the question of language is, is key as Spencer was bringing it about, right? Because those experiences are experiences that are on, let's say, that are configured in the very idiomatic character of, of, of, of, of language. And I think that connects also to what Spencer was saying about the importance of, of, of, of, let's say, a resistance to a Germanic regimes of meaning and grammars that are also taking place here and then have to do with that experience of space in that sense of, of, of a local embedded lived experience in its singularity. And care. Specific you want to speak to that always seems to say, well, yeah, no. I mean, I, I think this conversation is fantastic. I'm just more more pessimistic than I was when I started it. I mean, I I I mean, I'm telling you when you started an hour ago or when you started the mystic than when I woke up this morning. I mean, I I'm I'm I'm, I'm really struck by a way that we can read the trajectory of the move, move, move, movement as, as a kind of state victory. I mean, it's, it's been completely re-framed and now the struggle it's yeah, it's just become something, something, something much smaller and something that's really framed within state logic. An emblematic of that you would say is the struggle and the courts. In other words, that this language and that is, that it's no longer about instantiating a different ontology gets really about getting select folk out of prison and, and, and, and, and maybe it belies, i'll, I'll need to think more about this. But, but, but I guess have a hunch. It belies that some of the, some of the philosophy of language and the language work with both fall short and then becomes a kind of decorative accessory, right? So that is basically bourgeois legal activist. We can still called Cops curse words, but it's, but it's just not it's not revolutionary anymore. I mean, I, I need to, I need to think about this some more, but I am, I am I think, I think there's a lot there's a lot to be cynical about other than just the violence of the state coming down there, an actual police violence is perhaps the least, the least violent what the state does that because that makes them right. There's no end to the things that could be cynical about the state, about Pro and I don't mean to smile, not that obviously that's an extraordinarily important things, but, but this it seems to me, also depends on what you're saying brings up. I think the stakes are not his first question to you, which is, if they don't instantiate an alternative, do they instantiate computation? In other words, are those are only possibilities. I mean, meaning that's what I understood to be the danger as not a put it that temptation of considering ask Tory subject. Okay. This is the way in which I hear IT IS question I I take it on board as the question of does the alternative has to have to be framed in terms of a victory, right? Right. I mean, because the minute it gets framed that way, it's already on the terrain of the state. The minute that, you know, even when it's thought in terms of it failed, which it wasn't victorious or it was victorious? It did when you're already on the frame of the state. What the pills me about the move movement is precisely bit it as a movement, right? Which is to say in here maybe, you know, I'm, I'm drawing a philosophical line or distinction between the ontological and modes of existing. What, what move was, what would threaten the state? Was alternative existence, existing, LET aliveness, livingness not upon, aren't premised on the logics of the state as such. And the influences. That was the contestation, that was the bat. For me. It's why I'm taken to thinking about blackness as, as certain kinds of practices, the practices of living, the practices of aliveness, because those practices are the threat, right? I hope that distinction is not just being a trivial one, but At least I'm trying to make it carry a lot of a lot of the load or what I'm trying to like, sort of like argue here. The threat of move is that these people that they live with dadgum animals, right? Rather than given the ontology of the political ontology of the state, the animal on one side and the black on the other being that the polar prompts for the normative human, right? That's the key, a Jackson's new work, right? There's different imaginary of how existence itself works. That it withers the very term, the very ontological terms of, of, of animal, world and human. I'm trying to like inflict the Haida Gary and kind of instantiation of thinking of the whole motion of world. It breaks from all of that, embeds the bread. Right? And that's I think goes to what I understood because she didn't say a lot about the strike itself. So I don't maybe I'm misunderstanding some parts of this, but what Carlos you're seeing, I'm sorry. Nuanced difference that might not be invisible to many in terms of ways in which this is an alternative that you describe because it's not, you know, it's for peace. It's, it's, it's for participating was seemingly the status participating in at the same time, the status participating in. And yet presenting also an alternative to the states logic. And it reminds me also have Nadia is terrific moment of saying when people say but it's not, they don't have the numbers that you said. Not a question of scale, not a mass movement I used. And you say so what? And that's refusing the logic of the state. In other words, to not accept that the numbers must be, that is a numbers game. And I get asked a lot work of what kind of what is it then which is the work you all have been doing? Jay, I'm sorry. You're going to say some books. I yeah. I was just want to say even when they have beautiful point that makes light. So what I'll just load that moment, there's a presumption even inside of that, right? That's coming out naughty it like that, Right? The presumption is, well, what is mass? What constitutes mass? Right? By mass at that moment they mean something like the monumental, right? It's not a monumental movement. It's not a movement that could have a monument erected to it like we did with King coming out of a mountain, you know, in DC. It wasn't translatable into a monument. Well, we're not talking about monumental is, right? We're talking about a different kind of mass. The mass of the mass is, but this is a mass of the mass is that is not legible within the terms. And in Carlos brought this up within the terms of the figure of the people. We, the people when they think Mass bit thinking that people were saying we talking about there. We're talking about SAP mills. And just because we're talking about something else don't mean that is not massive. It's just that it's not monumental the way you want it to be. So that's the logic of the liberal state. It wants to dictate the terms of what even constitutes a people. And if you don't fit that, in some sense, you are declensions from the normative citizen subject. We can put us in jail. We can put you in that we can border you up and kill you down here at the board? Yeah. And I think that's why he spent a year. Expression that has an ism is so important because what we are seeing and talking to again and again is this sort of incredible pull that, that's for state logic has such that it becomes, even when you're doing work as you are and all of you are of seeing it as not an entire, not encompassing everything. It is still hard to not to then see things capitulated to the state and to grant them the state power in that sense. But in the pessimism there, or just our every day lives. So we are at time. I hope this conversation continues and other venues, it was really extraordinary, exciting to be part of it and hear about the work you all are doing. Thank you all who are attending and listening and ask questions and thank you to our panelists. Take care. It was awesome to be able to talk to you. I hope we will see you again soon. Take care.
This joint UNAM, Sorbonne and IU webinar series, held monthly on the last Wednesday of the month, brings together faculty and students from all three universities around interesting inventions that have truly changed the world. The series is hosted by IU’s Mexico Gateway Office located on the campus of UNAM in Mexico City and the IU Europe Gateway Office located in Berlin.
Description of the video:Start recording. We're happy to have you here with us today. Before we start, we will let you to know about the translation service, services available today. So you can feel more comfortable listening to the language. Would you like to do enable dysfunctional? Please click on this model. So in the lower right corner of your screen, and then click on the language of your preference. For me. Thank you for being here and welcome one of the most brilliant that they said, Oh, good morning, good morning to you all watching us from America, the United States and Mexico come to all of you from brands. We welcome you to this fifth session of the webinar, of this series of webinars, the great inventions that changed the world. A series of webinars is our fifth edition. Today has tried to talk about processes, phenomenon, and the social dynamics that have transformed our societies, both in Europe and in North America and Latin America. We are here today for this practice and these joint reflections. Will you be Sorbonne University and unum we today where in which we will talk about women in science and we will talk about the importance they have always had in science. Our three universities, Indiana, Sorbonne, and I, convinced of this in relevant role of women and their importance for our contemporary society. I would like to tell you this is a very passionate subject. And thoughts have been very important for the coordination of Haram. And we are very pleased to be part of this project. And we strongly thank the team of the University of Indiana way and all be moieties in international affairs of the Sorbonne University. I would also like to thank the coordination of international and of course, also the center of Mexican studies in France coordinated by Dr. Florian. This effort, it has been a monthly endeavor. This is our session. We will go to a brief break because of the summer holidays, but we will return in September with our sessions. Then we will continue in September for a couple more sessions and we hope you will all join us. We invite you to write your questions or points of view we have right now of a specialist who will give you a great overview of the importance of women through history. And we are, we are all agree and the importance of the role of women in contemporary styles. To moderate this session, I present in S PASA know about Gonzales ethanol that is part of the professors up and be health public health school in Indiana. She got her doctorate, The University of MOD. And she develops her scientific knowledge around the topics such as nutrition. Also. Our diseases, emotional health. She has also developed and is very interested in research pediatrics and the growth and development of children. Also, global health topics. Such as health in a Latin American population as well as in North Americans populations. So now I leave the floor to MS. And a thank you once more to all of you for your presence here today. Have an excellent session in stress. Yes, Alberto, thank you so much, Alberto, me to moderate this event. I will let it become all of you to this panel, women in science, which as mentioned before, it's part of the series, the great inventions that changed the world. And I find it very important that they thought the topic was included. I am not a scholar like Albert dimension on the peak like that, b, are born and Schapiro who will be lecturing today are. My work is in health. But as a lay person in this area, I have not miss the multiple news articles highlighting the role of women sciences, changing the world, making it a better place. From black women mathematicians to help nasa and honestly humanity reached the moon to, for example, Rosalind Franklin, molecular biology's who took the chair of the molecular structure of DNA, which is also known as picture 51. And that picture later was used by Watson and Crick to publish that double helix URI. And they did it without acknowledging her contributions. And examples of the lack of recognition of the role of women in science and technology are unfortunately abundant. So talking about these topics and highlighting the role of women is extremely important. Today in this session, we are joined by two scholars who have dedicated their professional life to study science, women, feminism. We will first hear from the bead are born from Sorbonne University and then from and Mary Schapiro, the National Autonomous diversity of CPO. So let me first introduce the beat upon. And so Professor of History of Science at the Faculty of Science of Sorbonne University and member of the US. Berries left, Left Bank Mathematics Institute's at Sorbonne University. He created and continues to lead the thematic can disciplinary minor of the history and philosophy of science and technology. With his colleagues, wrote a chronology of the history of science, which was published by Bishop. Especially mathematics, the, and the physical and astronomical science. In modern and contemporary times, he is notably the author of the elite under the great shot, normal use mathematics and the Great War, 1900 to 1925. And also of women popularization and practice of science in the Age of Enlightenment. The dialogues on astronomy and the letter on the figure of the air by sea star Francoise, GSC needed. And today he will be talking about these. So maybe you. Hello everyone. Thank you for this. Nice words. About E. I'm going to be speaking in English today, but as you heard there. And so I hope my talk will be said about 20. I've prepared a presentation and my slides will be in French. So there will be a complement to what I will be speaking about. Some quotes by B, also in French, I'm going to share my screen with you. If I can find it. Here it is. And try to know doesn't work. Sorry. Okay. Here it is. So again, thank you again for the invitation. I'm very excited to be part of this, this workshop. And now I'll start right away just to, in order to keep the time and hopefully have a discussion with some of the participants of this, this meeting. My topic today is, unfortunately, in certain respects, not so much about women doing science in the, in the Enlightenment. As you, as you will see in this talk, it's not impossible to find women having an scientific activity in the indictment and this has to be has to be placed into the picture. But I'm more interested in images. Images of the woman, images of the Earth. Or the shape of the earth more, more precisely and how it indeed. So two very important debates in the period of the Enlightenment can be connected to one another. The two debates are the debates about the place of women in science. Whether or not the woman has the time intellectual capacities as men, and the debate about the shape of the earth. And unexpectedly perhaps those two debates, cross paths, cross path in the middle of the 18th century. And that's what I would like to, to explore with you a little bit just to try to advance in our understanding of the place of women in science at this, in this period. First of all, let me go at the heart of the debate and, and, and look at some of the, as one of the main contest and the participant and the debate of the shape of the Earth, which is the scientists. More Petrie, who was a member of the French Academy of Science. And as we will see a little earlier, a very important part of the, This debate. I will first concentrate on the debate on the shape of the earth. Before trying to understand why women were became participant and, and the image of the women was, was what I became an important issue in this debate. In one of the polemical article. More petri emphasize the defeat of the cosine about this debate of the Earth. So the Cassini's who were day, I will present them a bit, The, them in a bit more detail later. But they are the main astronomers in France at this, as the, as the, at this moment. And what the polemic book that we wrote to emphasize the defeat of the cosine was interesting in the sense that it like in the observatory to the opera. So I will just read that quote. I will read it in French and translators will be o. Yeah, I think the English version of it. If I have this quote, listen to the interests of astronomy where a very bad manage to barrier. Because teeny, more than one cosine, maybe through secret desire to solve the honor of his barons and buy as sentiment of self appreciation. He did everything to destroy the doubts. Are movements that confused observations necessary to measure the degrees. Maybe the Earth has a certain irregularities. It is surprising that MR. can see me wanted to sacrifice his art in this way in order to save his honor and that of his parents. It's a really a scandal. The disorder and the mystery. Or it is evident that if stars a jump from one place of the sky to the other, and if the Earth has irregularities, there is, and it would be ridiculous to be an astronomer, a sub two stars and the rigor. Those are issue in which one can make precise measurements about the shape of the earth. I will go into these details that will be a bit too long to discuss all of these important aspect which I can address in a paired question. In the question, the question period that you want. What I find most important, most interesting here, that I want to emphasize is the comparison that he makes at the end between the observatory and the opera. In that, in that comparision, E, of course, says that it will be demeaning to compare the observatory to the opera. One of the reason why does the meaning is that the price, the place for entertainment, and especially a place where you will find a female company. So this text by more pear tree has to be put in relation to another text that was published, not sorry, that was written. Cosine to the third at about the same time. Unfortunately, I don't know if the text was written before or after. Mopeds read his text. But this is not so important. The texts is by Cassidy. The third. It's a text about astronomy. And it's a text that doesn't address specifically the debate about the shape of the Earth. At the same time. My contention is that this tax is, however, completely overdetermined by this debate over the shape of the earth. It is a text that I have now edited and published in the book that you see here presented on the slide. It is a text that was never published before and is extremely interesting regarding the image of women in 18th century science. So this tx is, takes the, takes the form of a dialogue between an astronomer and a woman. And it is very original in certain respect, especially the fact that it is one of the rare texts of the eight observation, actual observation practice in the observatory. Our popularized, this is the entry point to dipolar polarization, as well as all of the mathematical practices, all the mathematical operations use to to make observations meaningful at that time. And what are the really interesting outcome is that it perhaps in fact, really lead to some increased women participation at the end. So what I'm talking here, basically, what I'm showing here is basically the summary of my expose a here today. I'm going to start first by discussing the author, then the context, then discussing a little bit the genre of this. This techs tried to show you some of the originality of this text. And then in conclusion, look at what happens much later around 770. So the author, third of a generation of Cassini's. He is the son of Jack Cassidy. I will show the next slide right away. Son of Zach cosine and a grand son of Giovanni Domenico Cassini, who was the first to come from Italy to Paris at the Paris Observatory. When the Paris Observatory was being built. He arrived in 1669. In Paris. The son of CSR Francois was also named John Dominic. And he also was an astronomer working at the Paris Observatory at least until the French Revolution in the 7900. And all of them were leaders at the French and the Paris Observatory. They all played an important role there. And they were all, they were all involve both in astronomy and in cartography. I will go back a little. Who says After the third, because he's my main, my main character here. Venice was a very young senior, was not even 20 years old. He started to work on is first geodetic mission with his father GOD C is a way of measuring precisely. And then the dimension of the Earth. Ten, to try to use both the star's absolute observation and as I will show you later, some sort of geographic geometric observation of the main components, the main, main objects on the surface of the earth to try to determine precisely distances on the Earth. One of the issue that what are the issues that came out from this work was that the Earth was probably not completely spherical. And, but the, the shade, the exact shape of the Earth was under debate. I will come back to that a bit later. For a city is therefore a very important participant to this debate about the shape of the earth, which will up your exact the at the time of his missions, geodetic mission in France in 732. In 744. A real big book about that. And you will then embark on a gigantic project which had no equivalent in the world at that time, will not have any equivalent until the 19th century. Trying to map out friends scale. This will, this will occupy a cosine, the cosine, even his son until 1793. Second City became, says our Francois cosine became the director of the observatory of Paris officially in 770 one, he was the first one to have this title. So let me a bit more precise about this debate on the figure of the earth. To authors. Triggered that debate in the early 17 30s in France. One was Voltaire, and the other one was more poetry which I already presented. More. Petri was a scientist and mathematician member of the French Academy of Science, I will tell, of course, was more like a philosopher. And he came back from England with a desire to also sparkle that, that debate. So two books in the 707, 730 is address this issue in more or less polemical way. Button emphasize the fact that the British saw the Earth like something that was flattened on both side. And in Paris had the shape of a watermelon as he sells. More petri presented similar arguments, but much more in style. But the shape was very complex. Idea about the shape of the Earth is simply to understand whether or not the Earth is flattened at the poles and therefore bigger at the equator. Or the R. R has the contrary, the reverse shape. Well, there are various arguments that, but let me just, let me just stay with them with this characterization. We have a lot of historical studies regarding this debate of the Earth and the wide cultural repercussions it had. I just want to point out a few of them, three of them to be and precise. One was written in French by Elizabeth. But then we replace this debate in a, in a very broad cultural contexts which is link for her to, with the emergence of intellectual debates in the public sphere. Both Mary Terrell, an American historian of science, and JB shank, also American also historian of science. Embedded that in an embedded the scientific debate in also a very wide cultural environments, very wide cultural scene. In those two book, The Man Who flatten the Earth about more Petri by Mary terror and the Newton wires by JB shank. Both of these, all of these books really TEI, study data get triggered in the, in the development of the Enlightenment, in philosophical enlightenment with the issue of the, the, the, the shape of the earth. And again, I'm forcing you to be a bit quick, so I hope you will allow me to move along. The debate about the shape of the Earth was perceived rightly. So as a direct attack, this dynasty of astronomers at the Paris Observatory, who were elite astronomers, part of a certain form of nobility. They had privilege access to the court. The court, and they were in charge of the instruments and the observations being done at the observatory. There were also people who produce a new form of cartographic vision of France and was very important in the control over the Theta of the cultural and knowledge of the territory, both of the, of the kingdom, as you can see here, an overt Empire because it was for establishing the, the, the places. Of, of whether with the location of ports, for example. But lessons let us focus on on cartography and geodesy and the role it played in the shape of the earth debate that starts early in the 17 sixties and 770 is when the observatory is not even completed. The beige on Peacock, who's a collaborator of cosine, starts to measure the, the, the, the meridian, the Paris meridian to the north. Who? First meridian towards that first. It was measured. That the work was completely completed by cosine are around 171683. And in the first decades of the 18th century, between 18, 7800 and 7018, more or less. Cassidy the second measure, the whole merely the hemorrhaging from Dunkirk in the north to the appearance in the South. So it's a very long line which is measured, not completely but measured through. Some, say, with the instrument. You see, if you look carefully at the map, you will see a lot of small triangles whose along this line, every angle of these triangles are measured precisely. And you use trigonometry to try to determine the length of disparity. And one of the conclusion that cosine drew from this measurement was that the Earth was elongated at the pole, so that he had a precise prediction about the shape of the earth. So you can see here in this, in this diagram what the operation looks like. So you have some, you will usually have a team. So it's not something that is done usually by two. So often more than two people with someone who has to look at the clock and someone who has to look through a spyglass. And this measurement is therefore a very important investment of time, skills and money by, both by the astronomers and indirectly by the state. In the first new geodetic missions. And in 730 334 cosine the third, the young one, went with his father and measured a new perpendicular in this case. And the the, the flattening at the, at the, at the pole. So the debate in, in 34, 35 became very important. With regard to this question. More petri use and Voltaire use mostly British results, especially results coming from the Newtonian science. In order to put into question some of the, what the conclusion Ru, drawn by the cosine that the Earth was elongated at the Paul. And rather I argued for the, for the contrary, that the Earth was flattened at the poles. Again, this debate is a very interesting and complicated debate has discussed by many historians and they involve many opposition. The opposition between newtonian, Cartesian in terms of what sort of science should be done. Different types of understanding of how the celestial motions are, are, are, are, are, are, are triggered for exams. Especially the fact that there's a debate whether or not the gravity is an attractive force, or rather the impulsion or the contact between forces that they create. This gravitational force. And the, the, the idea by conclusions were that they were huge eddies around the globe there. So some professional issues are working with, with theory. They have different sorts of mathematics. The astronomers use more traditional geometry, numerical computation, while the geometers, that's the way they are called. But they're usually, they're mostly using analysis and new, new forms of mathematics, the differential and integral calculus. And as you will see later, women also intervene in this debate. Both. We are real women and images of women, both scientists and non-scientists in thin way. But very complicated. I think it will be difficult to put opinions on one side or the other of this divide and this opposition. So to settle the debate and for other reasons. But, but really if to settle the debate, Academy of Sciences in Paris decides in 735 to send two expeditions to very far-flung places. One of them will be, will go to Peru, or more, more precisely, part of what is now Ecuador and part of what is now Peru. And the other expedition will go to Finland and Sweden. And it is believed that if the Earth is flattened at the pole or on the contrary, elongated, the difference between the measurements to the waiter and places we're closer to the pole will be big enough so that it can be precisely measured and then the result will be conclusive. Result of these expeditions will be conclusive. And more petri, as you can see here again on this picture, will be heading the expedition the north to Sweden and Finland. And you see here is, is dressed in traditional. Traditional. So the, the result, again, I will do, I will, I'll cut short the story and the result of these expeditions are clear. And the Cassini's are defeated. In that means that the earth has been shown very precisely to be flattened at the poles, at the poles and is already clear from more pear tree. Who comes back at on in kids the discord chat, the academy ions, saying that it is, especially, it is completely clear when you compare the, the, the measurement of cosine in France and the measurements that HE, they did close to the, closer to the pole, that the Earth has to be flattened. At the, at the pole. The Cassini's themselves. We'll confirm that measurement with new measures of the marriage in, in, in at least the early as the 17th, early earlier. In the public sphere. The defeat seems to be quite crushing. More petri wrote Newly that the Cassini's are now the laughing stock of the town. And de la bear, in these treatises of dynamics in 1743, we'll talk about Justinian, the Cartesian, as a sect that is now very weekend. It is a fact. Eight on the shape of the earth also is not only scientific, but it also takes place in front of public opinion. There are several diff, little booklets and tracks and pamphlets who are published about this, about the debate. Some of them sign, some of them anonymous. Some of them we know the author predict precisely even at the time. And some of them, it is difficult even today to know who the authors are in this, in this context. Again, I won't go into the detail over here, but I would just want to point out a few things. Is that in this debate in front of public opinion, women will be mentioned for the first time and will appear as important participant. Or the figure of the woman will appear as an, as an important element of the, of the debates in several text. Women I mentioned prominently is the anonymous tract. Probably published. In 1738 called an anecdote physics a Mahal. I'll come back to this text because it presents the dynamics, a very interesting giant, gender dynamics in the North. Second in, in, in, in 740 it to three texts in the form of discussions with women. One is the hostel I figure out, which is part of the book I published last year. And more petty wrote La Jolla. Cms is a book that is addressed to women. So one of the question we might ask is, why, why women intervene in this debate, in, in this form. As fiction? Of course, as a model. There's a very important model, very explicit model in, for all of those authors. It's a best seller of the early enlightenment. It is the output, yes, your plurality demand conversation on, on the plurality of worlds by fontanelle, who was published first in 1816, 86, but went through education up until the 17 forties. In this dialogue, this conversation fought. Nell argues that it is useful to have a woman as, as, as, as an interlocutor for the, for the philosopher who presents the way in which the world has to work because of several, several aspects and especially potent for the first of which is that having a woman as a, as an interlocutor in this dialogue forces him to simplify science. The science is presenting. So the women is a good means towards per polarization. And the second aspect is that the woman also forces him to adopt a more gallant form of, of, of texts and of tone. I think. And to make or agreeable, we can also see that it forces him push science into also some, some sort of public space. Women appeared also in the Newtonian war. They appear again symbolically or as form as literary fiction in a text was there was published in 1737. And ladies in which the philosopher Francesco karate tried to present philosophical Newton years, newtonian, Newtonian him to a wide public. And you can see here one of the frontispiece, one of the picture he published as a frontispiece. And this, this book where he represents himself in a discussion with a woman. And this woman has the likeness of a real woman. A woman he was in contact with, which is at the family. Also come companion of Voltaire had the time, but also real scientists who add the laboratory in her castle and see, hey, somebody who publish books like her institution on the physical 740 was involved in scientific controversies with members of the Academy of Science. She has a very important BC about the nature of fire in the 17 forties. And it will be very well be known after, later for her famous translation of Newton's Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy. In fact, it will be the publication of translation of, of this book in, in any, in any language. So C is a true women participating to scientific debate at the time, and she's very close to B and an other. So at, in this conjuncture, the image of the woman both as somebody who was really involved in science, scientific discourse, and as a way to. Good science into the public sphere is very important. We can also find evidence that come, to, come back to this idea of great inventions of the woman astronomer was also invented in that conjuncture. As juncture in the early 1840s. There is a model, a model, an implicit model of that woman scientist, which is to me. And I'm, I'm just, you're mentioning a paper I wrote about her because she's a very interesting and, but also very elusive figure. But what I want to point out is that women were in Germany month Cathy's sister in Bolonia were well-known as women astronomer and, and Isabel lemme know in, in, in Paris. Defender just last year a very interesting dissertation on women scientists working in astronomy in, in the Enlightenment France. And she has very interesting findings about the way in which women were able to parties, astronomy, coffee. I was very interesting is the fact that it was also at that time that the image of the woman astronomer became part of a literary genre. And especially in, in one interesting review by La Chapelle, wrote in 1742 a review of a very big book on the history of astronomy. Wary ECE identified the women, women as fun as the specific category that he wanted to discuss. I want to, I want to point out that this takes place in a wider debate about the intellectual abilities of women. And we can just point out that it is, it could be the use of women are in certain, in certain, in certain aspect, in certain, at certain occasions. And for example, I'm just here. I just want you to, to, to, to mention, sorry the writing of Zambia now loop law who at the same time try to show that it is not serious to, to discuss, argue scientific argument with the, it has the level of the discussion. And one of the issues is exactly that, you know, whether or not this sort of argument as a place or not in scientific debate. And again, I'll go fast here if you allow me. What is very interesting again, also is that if you we can, we can enlarge our, we can look a bit beyond the, the argument just about the shape of the earth for it's for per se. And we can also realize that in fact, there is a tendency as well in certain polemical texts of the time to put the woman back to sexual role as, as the, the emphasis that is put on the relationship between immediate and Voltaire is very interesting. Be the whole story about the relationship between astronomers with more bacteria and more protein himself. With a few of few fin woman from Finland which are supposed to be called called the doctor. Did they say there? I have when I'm back to France, which is, which is very well, very commented in the, in, in the public sphere, show that it is not at all. Aside aspect of this, of this story. And again, we could, we could also discuss a little bit more the Peruvian expedition, where they are also very important. Issues with respect to the relationship between scientists tend to Peru and Persian women, as well as, as other women. And, and, and this is part of the, of the, of the picture. This whole network of images of women will have a very long term effect. If you look tree. The story. Very often the, the, the idea that women are our play a role in this debate. De-emphasize, I'm just quoting here from Louis Sebastian gave the writer from the early and late and late 18th, early 19th century who will discuss, well, we'll have this seed of science. Completely serious because women are involved in the debate. I might just read the quote and this will pay Newton that treble clef. We declared a vacuum, the cath lab, dip your thumb and psychomotor, Theodora, she may haunt the nose as we possibly can. Our backs on aesthetic do is login eclipse the lab. Allow present Tatian nouvelle OPIA. Again, the opera. Just to, i'll, I'll go fast now for 24 to reach my conclusion. The dialogue by cosine, which I published as years to me, seems to be shedding completely new light on this issue. So that dialogue was never published until, until last year. But it is a place where the image of the woman is, is very different. The image of the woman part of the Golan, because she dialogue is written in a direct way. The woman here is some, somebody who will read. She will not just get her information from the astronomer. She's very serious about her application to the science. She is somebody who's not afraid to observe at, not afraid to do mathematics. So those dialogue is completely different and very modern in some respects. So I wanted to, to show here one of the, the map of cosine just to, to see to, to, to, to help you see what was the result of his, of his research on the map of France. And I take advantage of this map to show you two villages to here and say, Why do I do that? Because is the SE need a third had a castle where you would go during his vacation sometimes. And Kobe said is a place where another Castile was. No noblemen were, we were staying and a noble woman, especially it was written, it was awesome staying there. And she was perhaps the first real woman in the story for cosine the third, because I found some evidence. They they were in correspondence. This woman and Cassidy the third have here we'll letter you have here a letter of cosine to this woman whose name was clerical opportunity. She, the book who engage in some astronomical observation at this, at this castle. The observations were not anything close to research observation, but it was they were very interesting in the way in which to me was a TCP. The observation of science. Not as professional astronomers, but has a practice that was worth pursuing. I just want to finish with a few conclusions that I want to emphasize here. First, that the image of women in the debate about the debate about the shape of the earth seems to be something that was really important to make clear a certain change of a with respect to the way in which science had to be divulged to the public. And it was, it is a key marker about the way in which you develop a scientific, scientific argument. We can see that it is linked to mutations in the ionization, the, of the Scientific practice, the fact that instruments are becoming more precise and more, more, more more costly. Mathematics is more, is changing the observatory and the expeditions are becoming, are, are, are, are, are becoming. The, are showing that science will be big, expensive, difficult to access. But at the same time of the intellectual capacity of the women. So in this juncture, the role of the woman was very important, too. Promote new forms of diffusion and new form of popularization of knowledge. As well as the relationship to, to, to, to, to, to, to fine tune the relationship between science and will be more and more professional and perhaps more and more masculine. And which is off, which has a specific role that has to be negotiation. Negotiation, negotiated in the, in these debates. So I will end up here. I hope I didn't go too much over time and I will Thank you very much for your attention. Thank you. Thank you, David. That was a very interesting and historical perspective. But if you have questions, please enter them into the Q and a. And let me introduce our second panel is a nice Schapiro is a full-time research associate in the Center for Research and Gender Studies at the National Autonomous University of Mexico. She holds a master's in args and a PhD in political theory from the University of Essex. And completed a post-doc at the Hoover chair in economic and social ethics at the University of love in Belgium. Among, amongst our publications, we can find Ek, I see what that definite or so, gender equality anyway, gender. Let's set up a conceptual revision of the Me Too era, dignity and feminism. And the forthcoming article is neural theory of neoliberalism, bad for women. She is currently working on a book project on neoliberalism, family and subjectivities. Her current, recent research draws on the relationship between contemporary feminism, neoliberalism, and post feminism. Besides her intense expensive feminism research work, Dr. Schapiro currently lectures on Gender and Policy at the Faculty of social and political sciences. Of them num YOU science. Well, thank you. And thank you for this. I am going to be reading first in French, some initial remarks, and then I will get the rest of the presentation in English. I have some slides that I will share with you in a bit, and those slides are in Spanish. So as you can see, I'm trying to be very inclusive. Can think enough of our audience. So heads up. A parable, a trench media to sell them. Well, good afternoon. I'd like to welcome you all for the opportunity to have me here to talk about a subject I find fascinating. We have learned to keep a distance and to survive. And we do not know at the deepness of inequalities and how these inequalities between men and women have played an important role in knowledge and science. A role that is felt to be recognized as we approach a new era with vaccination, science becomes once again fundamentalists. And I would like to talk particularly about feminist science as the relationship between science. And it cannot be summarized in a 40 minutes. Therefore, I will try to summarize this. The role of women. The science and their main contributions to terminological knowledge. And now I will switch to immigration. I awake OR and wonder human nihilo, spirit of them is the last line of the Juana Ines de la training in this poem, populist in 1692, and consisting of 975 versus quantity, describes Humanity's quest for knowledge and passion or intellectual endeavors. Dream begins the pig in a beautiful yet obscure staring. Then proceeds into the dawn of day and finally arrives to the moment in which the light of day casts its underworld quantities awake to repurchase moment. To this boy shows humanity's journey into the creation and appropriation of knowledge of the Universe, knowledge of the world, and knowledge of human, humans ourselves. So metaphor and a luxury, quantums is a love letter to science and epistomology, to the meaning of knowledge and our capacity, discover and learn. Born in 1640. Next, psycho quantity was a self-taught child prodigy from a very early age, one, and I spent hours in the library learning Latin aspect. Now what two? As well as logic, music, literature, and philosophy. Just to mention a few subjects, she became one of the most prolific writers in Spanish Golden Age. Current legacy includes essays, place, letters, and of course poems. She was one of a kind. Indeed. Women at the time were not encouraged to pursue academic careers. So despite her insistence, quantity OF prevented from doing it, advances for advanced courses at university. She even suggested to dress up as men so she could be granted entrance to the university. Her mother said, No, reluctant to the idea of marriage. One of only two pads for women enrolled in a nunnery. She became ISR, sister and email when she had specific no noticed she was also allowed to pursue her academic interests. Although sometimes she will, she will be chastised and forbidden writing and reading. Let us focus briefly on this idea of punishment. Just Iceland, on the one hand kinda corner was targeted at the sort the parabola powder. A woman DR about things which is alien to the other. She was also Kim can self punishment. She had cut her hair short as she could not conceive of an a door, had a beautiful hat, which was hollow on the inside. This led to a difficult relation with the world. I want to suggest an unknown quantity. An expert suggests that this forms of punishment from the outside and the self-inflicted one are informed by specific notions of gender. That It's whereas outside punishment suggests a reminder to Juana and to all women in general that their place is in the kit Chen and are rare in children instead of writing books. Self punishment is also a withdrawal from dominant notions of beauty and womanhood. As though femininity and intellectual quality where mutually exclusive. Queerness, intellect, curiosity, and genius is present throughout all her works. For instance, in the eloquent and beautifully Great and requests that are sort of petals corner narrates her try and put him in at the money of the old faced during due to Farabundo suited to learn. One list style. Here is coin, or in today's poor mental terminology, says humble bragging. I'm in it with the most your respect. She has humbled when she says I have and I quote, I have never judged that I have the affluence of words and weight that the obligation of the right to require you to take a little bit clunky the status of Bettina open and honest about going abroad? I think yes. I quote again, I have never judge that I have the affluence, the boards and width with that the obligation on the right, that the obligation that the writer with buyers, end of quote. So she's saying to Dawson, thing of herself. As smart enough to become a writer. Yet, colon, it does not fall short in providing details of care. Impressive, intellectual biography for as a child. And I quote again, The desire to learn for us is stronger. And the desire to eat and of both quantity here tells that one of her guilty pleasures West case. But sometimes she would prevent herself from doing something for she would rather put heard of her face in a book. Hermes of coyness are humble, bragging works strategic because he's aware of where the role that women out to be. Women should be quiet and reserved. And quite importantly, women should not brag about their achievements or intellect. It is important to note that in the West asked what color there? There are several hints, two forms of disobedience. The act of writing itself is the best form of disobedience. And perhaps the more obvious one. But also there is a risk signification of space is historically attributed to women and thought of as less important or prestigious. Quantum states. And cooking is a source of scientific knowledge. That even when women are kept and philosophers, this space within the households shouldn't be taken for granted in the creation of knowledge. Later, feminists would add that it's important for the iteration of citizenship and subjectivity. Quadrangle glutes. And I quote, there's a beautiful quote, embarrass, thoughtful handbook. King would have great and even more. And the boat and perhaps better. Oh, yes, corner OF exceptional key. Well as a genius and mere mortals, current story is part of a wider blot where the notion of gender has central stage. In other words, quantity, biography is not circumstantial. Past and current restrictions on women and other subnets when subjects are common currency, the gender dynamics that don't see and treat them as epistemological subject. Alongside with other women in the history of science and humanities. Hi, Pat, Yeah, or tennis Arabella, or gender, male and female astronomers that David has just mentioned. Obstacles faced during her lifetime. Preparing to you that systematically considers women as capable of producing knowledge. So to view, call it massaging me, or patriarchy or sexism is embedded in our social beliefs and institutions are social beliefs and institutions produce and reproduce somewhat strict gender norms and stereotypes that in their most dangerous form. That is, a bubble. Biology is destiny. This is still rather common. Nowadays. We still hear arguments, arguments justifying subordination and injustice based on gender. That is based on whether you are a man or a woman. Object in such argument is not new. However, as we have seen, quantum, alongside an important number of scholars, how strongly, strongly questioned the status of women. And it's ontological systematization of what we can call feminist thought. Began in the 18th century Europe and not take long to expend. Authors like celiac models, for example, suggests that no other non-Western societies have their own enlightenment processes. And the European Enlightenment should not be seen as a mum, analytical, or particularly unique long story short, 18th and 19th century feminists and paved the way to question the place of women in society. Feminist political thought and folded to academic inquiry, but also political mobilizations in the streets of the world. 20th century Mexico in London as well. Women are organized and demanded rights. Political rights in particular, are to begin with, including the right to education. This historical fact meant access to scientific knowledge and more importantly, gave around the question, the very foundations of academia, universities, and knowledge itself. Now, I will share my screen in order to quickly point out something. In science. Impact on the formation of critical masses and the production of a biased moment that ignores women as well as father and me nice subjects. I will draw on some of the main characteristics of the image and feminist epistemology in 20, print it 21st centuries. So just give me a second. Okay, in there. And I wanted to focus on this notion of feminist homology, as I was saying, the story of Juana and as well as the story of number of women within the fields of science and humanities fields and are traditionally considered as masculine, has been questioned. And in particular, because these exclusion, this systematic exclusion of women from science forbids their participation in epistemic communities. And those epistemic communities are the site where knowledge is produced, legitimated, including knowledge about women themselves. We have heard many stories. Supposedly objective eyes of scientists, mostly men. They tend to produce IDS that considered subtexts without really considering them. And that is the case of women so much as being written about what women are by other actors that do not taking consideration their women's own point of view. So this idea of science is informed by the notion that what we consider what a particular given society can see. My space of epistemological produced, production, that it's space where knowledge take place. That could be, it could be minute would be research centers, to be universities, and also schools at different levels. And these has to do with an idea that has run out differences, but that has run out throughout history. That women are closer to biology, that women are closer to their bodies insofar as they demonstrate they give birth, they get pregnant. So this biological and stand in forums, Women's incapacity to become. Today's science finds its legacy in 19th century positives. Science, which has to do with this in Mato about rationality, the T and F functionality. So women are not seen either as Rashomon are functional. So all the qualities that we associate with femininity should be expelled from this nice spaces. Because masculinity is per se, rationale and functional. Hence, the location of space. Find that men have been historically conceived or within the domains of the domestic realm. And that also implies an anti-intellectual idea. We have seen that also in quantize worked for her. The only option not to become a housewife, wants to become a nun. That was the only place where she could have room for herself as a scientist, as being fair. And as I was saying, this is not the only case we have. That aesthetic is Zeus. Art that SLA Abhilash. He was also a nun. And even when she was one of the most important intellect, when mistakes are part time, as he was not recognized as such. And he also had to dedicate herself to not to be a nun because otherwise you wouldn't have been able to access knowledge. In fact, the story up there is ice even more interesting because she is the one who later on in the century were attributed to their cart and an advocate is known today as the father of modern philosophy. Whereas all his IDS came from, that is that what she is not recognized. As such. She was not even old philosopher. She had, because women could not be called philosophers back in the day. She was called a mystic. So pretty good writing this exclusion of women. It gives us this art about Larry dream portray of, of what to expect. Now, what we have here is that. Our niche or niche for a party. Third type of men. I will explain this in a little bit. And this is how universities are somehow built in the last five centuries. There was a moment in history and I think part of David's presentation also draw some bad women have always been present in different spheres of life. However, they have not been recognized as dark. And so it's not that women weren't legally spelled or even, for example, in the case of Mexico, there was not a legal prohibition for women to attend University. It was an implicit norm. There was never something in the law that would forbid them to enter getting our city, but there was a whole structure that would undermine any efforts. And those women who dare to pursue an education would face important obstacles in that sense. So what I'm going to here is to draw this idea of how universities, our historically based on an elitist notion in Venice itself, we're taking that us as university people must conduct. And I think that the entrance of women with the universities has more profound way. A change that dynamic, how ever steal the presence of women is problema within many academic environments because they are not fully consider epistemic subjects. Now, it's important to know that the entrance of women, which act into universities, which began in the early 20th century after big struggle and demands. Furthermore, this created a new stand for women within otherwise mosque spaces. The fact that women entered university not only provide them with a different standing socially, but also a permeated the creation of new fields of study in which women had a direct intervention. And here is where I want to talk about a feminist epistemology. The term feminist epistemology does not appear in academic literature until the late 1970s. With the advantage of our position today, we can see different elements and different works that we would consider at step towards the creation of feminist epistemology. Beginning, for example, with someone, they will wash them avenues. Plus six. Here we have a particular extend that tries to understand and outside the rigid notions of biologic biology. And Dick atomical thought tries to understand how and what culturally justifies the subordination of women. They will was, is philosophical treaties. However, she points out to the notion of poles toward there is something within our cultures that seems to be quite normalized and at same time visible, but it's so powerful that keeps locating women in a position absolute. From a particular law for waiting after bodies, as I was saying. So we have these instances of had different epistemological stand that questions traditional forms of epistemology. That question the very notion of objectivity, of neutrality and universalism that are cornerstones in science in questions this IDS because on a first glance, we see that the scientific world functions is full of white, cisgender, heterosexual, Christian, men. So this particular type of subject is the one that suggests that what they do is not related to gender. That has nothing to do with their own subjectivity. However, we can see that they are the Prima fatty subjects of a particular form of understanding the world that keeps justifying the mythological oppression of women. And old days has its roots in. In modernity. But also we know that the project of modernity is one that for poets, self-created system. So here is where feminists find a little gap to enter through and question the very foundations of modern Western science. And they understand that these notions of neutrality, objectivity, and universalism. Well so mydate into reproduction that rubber production of certain ideas that we have about who we are and what justice is. Now, I want to talk about how feminist epistemology that has, it's, I won't say boom in the 1970s though. I think it's that continuum of rigorous academic work. How does a feminist epistemology, and not only in English speak in academia, but also in Spanish speaking world and the French speaking world. They point out the thing consistencies of the head in Monaco model science. They understand that, as I was saying, science has been ignoring certain subjects for it because it's good, considers them non-human or not so close to humanity or irrational or attributes this up, this will pull that our feminized subjects, a condition of inferiority that prevents them from entering spaces of epistemic creation. Now, this scenario gives way to feminists to propose a different form of I'm addressing academic subject and also to insert themselves within academia. So we have here that on the one hand, some women scientists might not consider themselves feminists, however, they, they're very precedence is important in order to undermine this had to mommy view of it, EMEA and science. And on the other hand, we are, we have female scientists. We consider themselves feminists and they are actively, and it'll intellectually, but also politically, they're active. I am providing new tools for declaration of knowledge. So feminist epistemology has also with festooning patriarchy as a, has to do with questioning the colonial legacy. And it seeks to motivate infections debate and also controversies that seem to be embedded in, in scientific world. Also, it's important to recognize within feminist epistemology that women are not a tech. There's no one notion, one idea of women that we'll share. And they also focus on how plural, the notion, the umbrella concept of women is and the Ironman or inclusive scientific field. Now, it's important to note that feminist epistemology has certain goals that are important and that we are not there yet. It's very interesting thinking that some of the things Juana wrote in the late 17th century are still, still make echo in our lives as women in academia. And also for our students in the classrooms. One of the main goals within feminist epistemology has to do with humanizing or rehumanize and women. Within scientific disciplines, this idea that we are bad at math, or that women should not dedicate themselves to academic endeavors because they Children and marriage. All these things need to be the bandwidth and feminist epistemology sort of provides paths to do that or to somehow reconcile the division of labor. So it's not only on women will get the toll of time-varying and, and, and marriage. Also, it's very important for feminists. I'm epistemology to bring to the front the notion of inter-subjective experiences, the IDF's of the activity itself might be problematic for one expense because science is supposed to be neutral. However, what feminist epistemology hassle mailed is this notion that science has never been a drought. It has always been particular position informed by particular top texts and informed by their own standing in the world. So feminist epistemology tries to green on this bad rap that the notion of subjectivity has had historically. It's also important for feminist epistemology to reconstruct the construct or construct different forms of relationships between men and women. The first stance, since even the early days of feminists who wants to question why women are subordinated in regards to men. And we're still figuring it out. We're still trying to do particular actions and practices both at the individual and institutional levels in order to overcome this relationships up nomination that tend to be very common in the dynamic between men and women. Feminist epistemology also pain points at that. And another issue of force, this list is not exhaustive, but another issue that I find interesting in feminist epistemology has to do with validating the research made by women and about women. That it might not be the traditional research. But it has provided new elements, new tools, new methodological tools, in order to talk about specific issues that hegemonic traditional science with just simply ignore. Now finally, I want to give you a little example of feminist epistemology, epistemology and methods. This is the point of view theory. It refers to the point of view women. A little footnote here, I use the term women in a broad sense. To me, women are those individuals who embody notions of femininity, dominant notions of femininity regardless of biology. So that's why throughout this talk, I've been talking about women and feminized subtexts. So the point of view in theory takes into account this notion of soft activity is important to understand where we are syncing as individuals, as researchers, as people who make science or who work in the humanities. Because that informs a lot of what we do as scientific and moles. Once it's against per se and to the notions of rationality, it is against the notions of oppression, subordination that seemed to be the cornerstones of modern science. It doesn't want to do them completely. It wants to restore them and wants to work through them. And to show that the notion of subjectivity and the notion of inter-subjectivity are invaluable tools. In the sense. Through a theory like this, we can have a look at theoretical and practical knowledge that has to do with specific subjects and in their everyday life. Also, it allows us to get closer to specific realities and understand them in a more direct way by listening to the subjects involved. And also, it takes into account other dimensions of subordination that have to do with race, class, sexual orientation. So overall, us, as I said, I am not providing an exhaustive notion of feminist epistemology and just pinpointing somebody it's nine characteristics. In order to switch my solution. I would like to tell me too perfect to the seventh century. We know that when the West and intuitive and inquisitive and to lead time. She died in 1695, age 4046, during the typhus epidemic. Epidemics and pandemics have not would help humanity from progress. Including the ugly face of progress with weapons of mass destruction and the enhancement of inequalities. However, I want to finish this talk in a more optimistic note. Science matters, but it can never be complete if it excludes science match pairs. But it should also be a place for justice and self inquiry. And in order to achieve that, it meets all soft spot. Thank you. Thank you. That was an excellent overview of women in science. And and there are many that I hadn't noted, very interesting and important. And when you're talking about them, it's like, oh yeah, it's true. Like for example, you mention it is a statement to be a woman in science, for example, a feminist statement. And there is so many women out there working in the field and doing science and they do not consider themselves panelists, but they are. So I really like your presentation and your highlight. And if we can invite David back, maybe we can have a conversation between the three of us. So we can hear more about both of yours perspectives and in these topics. So both of your presentations were extremely engaging. I don't see that we have questions from the public, but if you have questions, the audience has questions. This is a great moment to to post them. In the meantime, I am ask you, well, we saw two very, very interesting presentations. One from a historical perspective in it was also shocking to see all the challenges that women face at the time and how they were seen. Like sometimes. There were these male scientists that even they didn't even interact with real women. If I understood correctly, they were just pretending to talk to women and watering down and trying to be, to make science more accessible. And then other times they were interacting with real women. And then the presentation for RNAs, which was more it started from, so why nobody was also were more bass in the current situation in and trends in and epistemology that we are facing right now. So let me ask both of you. So first, debate. Knowledge on what present that and how you think your work and interact. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the question. It is very interesting to me to have this sort of epistemology perspective in the sense that the, the way in which women are intervening in the debate for me is very complex. And one of the, one of the shoe, which I found very interesting is that the discussion of feminist epistomology always came back to the fact that women were assigned a specific role in the household. And to me, I'd like to challenge that a little bit because what I see in my essays I presented is that considering women is, is more about making the way in which we should talk about science in the public sphere. So it is true that science, that I'm sorry, that, that women in a certain sense are not considered as the natural, as naturally belonging to epistemic communities if you, if you want to. But the fact that you include women in the discussion is a sign that you want to go beyond these epistemic communities. And so that To me, it's very interesting to see that the presence of women in this, in the material presented is not necessarily about enclosure and about clothing science and closing the, restricting the, the, the place of women. It is on the contrary about opening, opening science to a wider public. So what are the issues that I wanted to, to, to, to raise this, this, this point is that the position of the OH, of women read either real or imagined, can be, it can be multiple, as I wanted to show. So it is part of a public, it is part of a public image of science. And at the same time, there is, there is. Another aspect which I mentioned very briefly in my talk is that when women are mentioned in, in, in, in their, in their, in their role, in the role as sexual companion to the, to the male scientists. They also represent some thing else again, which is very, the difference from household because then they become the representation of exoticism and the fact that when you do science in abroad and you, you meet other people, you meet different ways of doing stuff. And you meet different types of excitement that you can derive from bid on science and that it becomes another form of representation of that fabric type. And so what I'm, what I'm getting at is that two it's two, it is, it seems to me that it is a bit reductive to assign women to the household, overall time it over all period in overall situation. Because the role women can have very could be very much much more complex than that. Yeah. Can I ask the respondent to react also to the presentation? First, I would respond and then I will react to an excellent presentation, right, of it. I think that, that are of course, nuances that we have to engage with when we talk about the history of women. And that's why historical context matters. I do think that women have been in the public space throughout history. That has evident women have always been workin. We have not. We have this notion that the Western 1950's in the past century that women went out into the job market. However, it with a backed and probably, you know, this but our immediate work and history. If we go back, way, way back, we're good. We are always going to find women in different jobs doing different things within the public space. I think that that is the reality. And I really like that you mentioned this division between what is real and what is, imagine, you know, the social imaginary scenario subshell and the hand, which is gendered. That is very important because even went to reality does not respond to our legacy of nineteenth-century social imaginary in which women are part of the domestic sphere. We still being made are. And we said, in everyday life, we see, we see it when women scientists and I have say, women scientists in order to make these nuance. Because if I say scientists probably wouldn't, we need to specify, right? We have cases in which female scientists or female politicians are asked, how did you deal, how do you cope with your personal life? How do you deal with your children and how is no household? This up as two that are rarely asked to men because there is an implicit idea that men are very comfortable in public space, right? But things like child-bearing or house, what are feminized. And there are a particular type of subjects that has to do that is in charge of those chores. Now, I think that what feminist epistemology, epistemology and feminist philosophy and feminism in academia in general and in particular, historiography has been doing for the past, I don't know, 50 years is to unveil. These women have always been there in science. I think it's very telling that for us, your presentation gives us new information about this female astronomers. We supposed to already know that. Why are you familiar with those names and their legacy? And the same happens with one that won't always an exception. And he'll Mexico and misuse even in our, in our, in our fields and our nodes. And this is a very important figure, but she is still an exception of agar. And it has happened when many women in science, because names have been are just doing there to kill, sorry, or refill history. Because I'm very much agree with your stand that women have always been there. Probably it is problematic to think of them are smear the masticity. However, the force of the social imaginary is still there. And I think that's what we're struggling here with the, you know. Now I think that also your, your question and this challenge that the post is about how we shape science in general. It has to do. And here I love that in this is our moderator because she works on health. Madison and these areas that the plastics, though, it's most women who study Madison than men. Whereas a few years ago it was the other way around. But do you see that the presence of women shapes science and shapes the spaces. But that is not enough because we are still facing structural conditions that tend to withhold them. They tend to not be further in their careers. One example of this is that even when universities are quite feminized in the sense that there are more women are doing undergrad degrees. In the top scientific positions or academic positions, you have very, very limited number of women. It's, the ratio is like 70, 30. So you see that there's still a lot worse that we're shaping it. And I think also this kind of talk is a symptom. It's a symptom black. However, we are not there yet. And, and historiographical work and philosophical work will be the Import. And in order to see where we're heading, I don't believe I answered everything. Probably I wouldn't give them a full-on answered. Those aren't my thoughts. And I am going to react to maybe its present age and I really liked it. I more about these two mates. What we're seeing. I mean, do you pose the question there? What are the very max is here? What are the conditions of possibility that allow for certain women to be part of a scientific field that is traditionally excluding women. So I would like to hear more about, about cakes because I assume that it's not any kind of woman. It's a particular type of women that are able to enter. This display says, because they are already educated. So I wonder, do you have some, some thoughts? And, and before you answer that question, they need, I will add a question that we bought from from the people listening and it's on top of what a nice As in, I think it goes well. So what are the challenges and what's the future of women in science? Okay, Thank you. It's a big question. I'm not sure. I'm the I'm the most most well-positioned to to to to answer it. One of the issues I, I, I wanted to emphasize was the, exactly the condition of possibilities for, for women to be part of the scientific enterprise, or again, the image to be part of the scientific debate. But let's say that we can put image aside for a moment, although I think it's important. But the, the, the, the conditions of possibilities are both internal specific women specifically location-specific circumstances, but also in, and that's how the image is important. Also because of the specific condition of a time period than in a different socioeconomic condition. We don't mention class very much, but we also have 2 raised to a certain degree, which was mentioned, but a class is also very important. We have to understand that path. And it's even more difficult for lower-class women to be part of the, of the, of the, of the, of the scientific enterprise. So my emphasize, my idea of emphasizing the fact that women are always there is also to emphasize the fact that it's, it's, it is also a very much an issue of visibility. Sometimes it's very hard to, to find this information as, as well as by 76 of Florida of archaeology to do. And that's what Emily said. So the way in which women are able to enter science, I think, has been charted very well now by historians. And the fact is that obviously there are still a lot of issues, but the milestones have been I've been quite well identified. The fact that women are, were able to be, to receive an education obviously was very important because in the 18th century, it was not really clear whether actual abilities of women were the same as intellectual abilities of men. Though there were a lot of debates about that. And in fact, when you realize that when you give the same education to both sexes, you, you get similar results. It seems this, this seems to be good, clearly, clearly established by now the VIII. But, but, but you, you go, you need to go through the steps to be able to give the same it okay. Texas are. And then what is the future of women in science? I, I, I can see that more and more. We give a lot of attention to this issue. Whether or not some of the blocks that we still encounter will be surmounted or not. It's difficult to say whether or not, what are the nature of those block blocks. I don't think now we can attribute per se and we usually, we usually try to think that it's attributed to social conditions in which these things, these development are being pursued. So I think that there are several programs, several initiatives that try to, to, to remove those blockades more and more. And I think we have reason to be optimistic, although they're still forces that will, who will try to to slow amniotes? Closely denials. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, I want to hear Near East has to say on the future of women in science. And also there's one on it from, from the audience saying that. And I'll try to reflect what I understand from this question. But I think she's saying that women, we have to face all these barriers and really fight to, to succeed in science and to practice science. But on the other side, there, there's also these discourse maybe from these, the male scientists are the keepers of science. It, that make it sound like they're just giving us like they're just being lenience and opening these spaces. And they're like they're the facilitators of this process. And I think it would be great admiration. You can comment on these notion of the immense barriers that women have to face that author of them are invisible. And this notion of some people who are like, well now women can be like will allow women to participate in science and that's why they doing better. Okay? These are really interesting questions. I, I don't think I have an absolute answer for about what the future of women in science is. I guess in order to talk about that future, we need to consider our lattices and our precedent, and what our institutions aren't currently doing. And by institutions, I know only mean universities. I also mean governments. How they are encouraging young children to participate fully in science. In particular, when we have a very profound inequalities in the access to education. So I think that are, there are many studies that show how at certain points during childhood, women and girls are prevented from going further in their inquisitiveness. If they are good at math, they are sort of discouraged from pursuing certain paths because they are not considered feminine or because they are consider difficult. So that is a problem that ice gendered and that we have to make, you, have to make visible and you have to problematize in a very deep way. So we cannot have future women in science if we don't deal with what are legacies are and, and what we're doing to reproduce this sort of a system in which there aren't still kept behind. Now, I estimate that, you know, that you mentioned in this on the city of facilitators and the barriers that prevent women from going further within scientific fields. I think it's easy to fall into the trap that all men are horrible. And Ahmed want to keep this system of domination thing, but it's also unfair and untrue. And it doesn't allow us to mobilize that debate, right? I debate and justice and a debate on what we really mean by quality. I guess one of the key components of equality to question our privileges. And men have to question their privileges in order to pursue forms of equality. But also women ourselves do that all the time. And it has to do with the fact that I'm thinking of you and I MS. Wherever a privileged Right. We are Mexicans. We were able to have the opportunity to study and work abroad and to have higher education. And we are still the data Hobbes, we're still exceptions because we were lucky to have those things and it should not be a matter of luck. So also for women. In strategic decisions, it's important to question our privileges. And hence this notion of the point of view theory that I speak from a particular place. Having, having said that, I also think that the fact that we have at unum, for example, now we have the Center for Gender Studies of which I am so privileged to work at. And now we have a new post-war great program on Gender Studies. At the first one for num, which is historical depth at this university had all these things have happened because women have been very pushy about it. It was not easy. It was not a gift from a bunch of men.