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Read about workshops, lectures, and other events that have taken place at the Europe Gateway.
This panel discussion explored the multifaceted journey of pursuing a Ph.D. in Europe and North America. The panel of junior and senior scholars identified strategies and perspectives for leveraging early-stage career impediments into opportunities by sharing their personal approaches to issues like networking, academic writing and postdoctoral employment.
Description of the video:
Hello, my name is Andrea Adam Moore. I am the Director of the Indiana University Europe Gateway in Berlin. And I'm very happy to welcome you for Today's or Tonight's wherever you are. Virtual panel on The Journey: navigating the PhD and beyond. It's wonderful to have a great panel here with us virtually, but also to see so many people being interested in this process of rather different panel. It's not the academic contexts, but it's a kind of a support event, which I really, really like, especially since it is trying to help junior scholars and students. So as you could also are already see with your registrations, what we want to talk about today. The PhD journey, which seems to be laden with challenges, but also opportunities in both Europe and the United States. And today's virtual panel of young scholars and also very experienced researchers is going to discuss strategies and perspectives for leveraging those early stage career challenges and impediments into opportunities. And before we start, I want to introduce our panel to you. We have here with us and it's the the instigator of our panel as my dear colleague, David Audretsch who is a distinguished professor and the chair of economic development at Indiana University, where he's also a serving as director of the Institute for development strategies. He's also a part-time professor at the Department of Innovation Management and Entrepreneurship at the University of Klagenfurt in Austria and an honorary professor of an industrial economics and entrepreneurship at the WHU Otto Beisheim School of Management in Germany. David's research has focused on the links between entrepreneurship, government policy, innovation, economic development, and global competitiveness. Also with us is Johann Wiklund was the Al Berg Chair and Professor of Entrepreneurship at the Whitman School of Management at Syracuse University. As I just learned, the city of snow in the state of New York in the United States. And he's the editor in chief for Entrepreneurship, Theory and Practice, is a prolific advisor of PhD students and he has received the Academy of Management Entrepreneurship division mentor OT in 2011. His research focuses on neurodiversity and mental well-being and entrepreneurship, or I should say it includes these topics. And then to our junior scholars have also with us, Ann-Christin Grözinger is a PhD student and research assistant at the chair for intrepreneurship and family. The University of seeing. Her research focuses on psychological factors and small and medium-sized enterprises in the German bit of shunt. She's also interested in topics in the field of sustainable entrepreneurship. Currently she's a grantee of the Fulbright Germany PhD scholarship program. And as visiting David Audretsch at Indiana University for a joint research project on yet cushioning, Ronja Kirschning is a doctoral student at the École supérieure de commerce de Paris, ESCP Business School. And prior to joining us at the business school, Ronja graduated from Maastricht University with a Bachelor of Science in International Business. She further received a Master of Science in International Management, design innovation from the University of Glasgow. She has come around quite a bit already and her research focuses on knowledge, spillover entrepreneurship in different contexts, as well as institutional voids and barriers to entrepreneurship in developing countries. And last, but certainly not least, my dear friend Jonah Otto, who is a doctoral student and research assistant at the Gerald management organization at the University of Oxford. Jonah earns his undergrad degree from the University of Southern Indiana and the United States. And then completed a master of Public Affairs degree at Indiana University, where he focused on public management, non-governmental organization management, international education, and economic development. Came to Alex book in 2018, focusing his reach or researched and international organizations, education and economic development. And with this, you know, a little bit about the background off our panel. They will get started discussing hopefully very interesting questions for all of you. But we also really want to invite you to ask your questions to our panel. Please use, if possible, the Q and a box on your in your Zoom window. And I will pop in and ask our panel when there are questions. But if you want to ask them the chat, that's fine. But we prefer the Q&A. Anyway. With this, I would like to hand it over to David and look forward to hearing from all of you. Great. Thank you very much, Andrea, for the very kind introductions of, of, of this, this very inspiring panel. Usually I'd say of experts. But I guess in a way, each of us is, I don't know for experts on our journeys. But one thing for sure, we're all on our journeys. And listening to talk about just a little reflection of the PhD journey reminds me. I was at a conference not that long ago. And one of the doctoral students was as like like that all, yeah, Jonah and Kiki and fission was pretty close to completing a PhD. And then she said to me, Thank goodness, this is over and I don't have to do this anymore. And I know you'll find with Lafferty is laughing at that because you think, oh no, no, you're just at the beginning of a journey that doesn't end basically and seems to have no beginning and no ending. So yeah, let me let me so we're, you know, we're all a diff various stages of our journeys. Some more at the beginning, some more in the middle. And I suspect that at least one of us is more towards VN. What surprised you the most in your journey that you didn't anticipate or think about when you got into this. And it really wouldn't matter if you're one of the more experienced people and have a lot of years or nobody hears in the first year or first month. But this question would still stand, let's say, or the younger people first, I'm curious to hear their perspective. So I guess for me, it was really the social side of this whole journey because I hadn't anticipated that. I hadn't anticipated that I'm going to meet a lot of very interesting people from whom I can learn a lot. Older opportunities that come along with meeting people like that. That will be my biggest surprise I'd say so far, but I'm only going to hear so well. But I think when I started my PhD program in economics, because back then entrepreneurship didn't exist. I'm not sure the word really existed except for the French word, but that's another story. But I know, I know this. I never would have connected PhD in social in the same sentence. I think the questions are interesting because you say, what's the biggest surprise and maybe the biggest surprises that almost everything as a surprise, you, you don't really know when you're first starting out. What's really come in. You don't know what type of opportunities are going to be open to you. You don't really know what it's like to be managing, teaching your own courses at a, in our longer-term view, developing your own curriculum in a way, how your research idea is going to change from how you first envision that happen. You got to the university to start your doctorate. I said at the beginning, all you really know is okay, well I have this thing I want to research. I have this position, this title that I want to gain at the end of it. And you really have no idea exactly how that's going to go in-between. Almost everything kind of feels like a surprise, you know, the direction but the steps themselves, they reveal themselves as you go. What opportunity has surprised you the most? I mean, they have to be huge on, it could be on your Anybody. Kiki. I would win the Fulbright Scholarship honestly for me. Because, you know, that's, that's key. That's still surprises me. I'm joking. Me, so I already had it and everything and then I fire it and get it and then you're like, Okay. Sorry. No, it's just going to say in terms of surprises, I mean, I remember is selective and I did my PhD back in 998, so that's whatever 24 years ago now. So I probably only remember the positive things, but I think one thing clear really, because I was a consultant before we had gone to come for instance, in that space. What I do recall from our very first conference, which was in Barcelona, was how approachable everybody was there now, collegial was because there were people that I had read their works, you know, they, they were like the, the top scholars in our field. Now that's remember that, you know, after the session as we all went out and had to bear together and so forth anyway, just and you know, you could approach anybody and ask them about anything and everybody was just very, very happy to share their experience and knowledge. And I think that, I mean, I think I hope It is still that way. And I think that I've noticed with my own PhD students, particularly in their first year, that they have a bit reluctant to approach people that are more senior. Uh, for example, I had one PhD student. She was studying a specific method in turn out that Danny Kahneman, the Nobel Prize Laureate, had used that method, but he didn't fully describe it in this papers. I just told her I'll send him an email and ask him and she goes, Well, I'm a first year PhD student. I can't write an email to a Nobel Prize Laureate. Sure, you can eat and the academic, if you're an academic, you help the younger generation. So he did. And she did, she sent an email to him and he got a response actually, not from him directly, but from one of his co-authors. He does forwarded the email to one of the co-authors, wrote a very nice and exhaustive response. So I think that's what surprised me the most probable. And I encourage everybody who's listening to approach the people at conferences and whenever because they are open at Johann, I think what you just said is also what surprised me the most because I at the beginning I kind of thought that there's kind of probably a divide between kind of the early stage research as myself and more established paper and our professors actually encouraged us to also reach out to others just if we're interested in something. If you want to talk about something with someone and a lot of us did. I mean, David, I reached out to you and here we are now. So that worked out, I think for almost all of us at the chair that we just kind of got to know. Other people, got to know my senior people. They were super appropriate, traverse, super nice and happy to help and start a conversation. So yeah, I definitely didn't expect that before. I think right. You got your first publication as a result of them? Yeah. I mean, not yet, but I'm in the process. Is in the process. Okay. It's in the process. Yeah. I think those are probably the things that have come up here from, I mean, from Johan's first, I think those, those themes of community and family and how relational the academic world really is. And that'll probably keep coming up throughout today. And maybe that's a surprise to, I think in a lot of ways. We think about doctorates and we think about dissertations. Phd work is an individual thing and it's truly not. You're not getting the most out of the experience. If you're kind of if you're more isolated, if you're not engaging with the rest of your department, recipe or faculty, even multi-disciplinary across the other faculties at your university, engaging in the community, participating in conferences, reaching out to people, connecting with the network of your supervisor. You're not doing those things. You're really limiting yourself and the experience as a whole. And I think maybe that's something I didn't fully grasp before I started either. If we have a question from a fist stuff in scheme which we'll get to in a second. But you'll know how do you do those things? You don't say it. Like, Oh yeah, connect with your community. Cake, cake, he says be social. But how does it actually, how to do that? I guess that starts with the most important relationship, probably that between you and your supervisor or whoever else is on your board starting that conversation about what are the networks I need to be involved with? What's the key literature I need to be, you know, in the two reading to know the bigger names, to know who writes with who, who does, what, what they attend, what journals they publish, and to really kind of get the lay of the land, I guess you would say. To then realize like okay, what are, what are the channels to connect with these people? Who were the people I might want to talk to. Who does my supervisor. I already know all of these types of things I think are good. Like first steps, steps. I've put up to that. I think we all, I think we all love talking about, I mean, what brings us all together in academe has some interests to some kind of research topic or theory or method or whatever. I think it's, I think if you approach people you don't know and talk about their research. I think that's usually a good way to do it. I mean, people all, everybody loves some ego stroking. If somebody says, I really love your research about XYZ, that's usually a good start delimiters are talking about. I think that's worked well for me. I really agree with everything you say, but I was also thinking that we you, you can think like a smaller level because I think it's also really important to get in touch with your colleagues and other people from your faculty, talk to other PhD students, talk to post docs because they, they might also have a network and especially in the beginning, it might be easier to connect with those people. If you're starting out and man, it sounds like talk to people, that's probably the best advice. Try to talk to people. I know that it does denounce the the Academy of Management Dr. consortium. I know that it's in the making. I will be in one other panels there. So I know that I recommend to everybody if you're if you're in your PhD to apply to those consortia test-like. And Christine is saying and where you can meet the other PhD students because you know, once the old guys like David and me are gone, it's actually your PhD students that would be the future leaders of the field. So I mean, I can just tell a little anecdote. I met, I first met in Urdu. If you're an entrepreneurship, you should know of him. He was the editor of Journal Business Venturing is a very prolific scholar. He's my best friend in academia and we met that the doctor, first, the Babson Doctoral Consortium in 1996. We were friends for five years and then we started working together. So that's just one example I think that applies to many of us. Go to the consortia, go like and Christine says, talked it out a PhD students. Yeah, it's really good. I appreciate the example. Kiki. Don't worry. It's tough because to get to your question, but, you know, kiwi, you said talk to colleagues. I think you mean you don't other PhD students, right? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, go on. At least at our university, we have the opportunity to do Ph.D. Seminars where you can meet other professors, for example, and you really get to know them. That's, I hope I'm right now participating in one seminar in Germany with fluidity to synthetic event a for example, a lot of people probably also know her and she's really always an inspiration to me if I talk to her. And she's at the same university IN so it's probably easier to talk to her first, then to just walk up to Johanne on a conference and talk to him. I would be scared of that still probably. But I know it shouldn't, but that's just like try to get into, get yourself comfortable with talking to the kali and other professors at your faculty and then you can expand that. Well, one thing I can tell you if you approach Johann conference, you've gotta be lucky knock. That's for sure. Because he's very tall. And you're not How did you get to know Simon positive me? Yeah. That was also he was coming to our university teaching a course on statistics and I engaged in that. And then he was, he was there for a week and we organized like a dinner with all the people from the chorus, but it was like the week before Christmas, so not a lot of people join them. But I went there and we had a great night together. We talk the laude Amnon, we went out once more are two times more to grab dinner because he's really a nice guy and it's great to talk to him. I've heard people say about Johann to. So Christophe. Christophe, his key, poses the question to our panel. It's a great question and a really great question. I think it's in everybody's mind. Did you start your PhD journey from wanting to reach, search something that interests you? Or did you start it from a question that society needs to get answered? I think I did the same thing. A. I'll let the other start. I'll think about it first. I can give an advice and then I answer that. I have strong opinions. There's share my opinions and then I'll share my own experience. I think it's If I could could say anything. I think it's so important that you, you, you choose a topic that's important to you as an individual. And I actually see this as a Venn diagram of three, partly over, over lapping circles. So in the first one is something that interests you as an individual. Doesn't matter if it's cooking. If it's, you know, making the world a better place or if it's riding a bicycle, could be just anything. And then you find an overlap with your advice. So I think it's also really important. If your advice app is like cooking and that's great. If your advice app is like something within the field of entrepreneurship, that, that's also great. And then a third circle there is that it's something that's been discussed and entrepreneurship. And then you try to kinda get those three to overlap. I think you have to start with yourself. Because if you do something that's deeply meaningful to yourself, you will have the energy to keep working forward for a long time. And you will also be, you will also some unique knowledge and so to say competitive advantage. I myself, I actually did not do that. It was, I actually started not. I actually started with the research project. That was my advisor who had a project and they needed an assistant. So that's how I started. But then later I read papers by somebody than in Miller that really I thought Where does the most wonderful research I'd ever seen. And that's really what got me on to my topic was finding a paper that I felt was outstanding. So that's my own journey. Lucky. You're famous. What did you tighten your famous paper? It's a great title. We UTI above we have written about this and then I wrote a book chapter called Reyes search equals me search. And more recently I wrote together with Dean Sheppard and the MDM hub in an editorial for ATP, where we're talking about me search. So you can, you can find that there were actually outline. Not only why it's a good thing to start with, things that are important to you as an individual, but also how you do it and the things you need to think about when you do it. So it's a little bit more hand, it's pretty much hands-on. So I encourage you to go there and take a look at that. And I will be interesting. What was your story? Because I think bear like that. People that are more experienced and have a greater impact here and answering the questions and probably will. I don't know if we have a greater impact. I mean, one thing for sure, something they stay the same in our business. But some things evolve. So when I hear Rohingya talk about in YouTube, Tiki about how you, we're encouraged. How the senior faculty really facilitated interaction themselves with other people. You know, when I did my PhD. Now, it's not true for Johan. I remember Johan as a doctoral student, actually. I remember him, he used to be one of you. And if I if I'm around long enough that someday I'll know when you are, what he is today. And it's, you know, that's the journey he went from being like you to me. He might as well been what have you maybe just a little taller. But it's what happens over time. You know, he's now become the Johan that we know. But the one thing I think, yes. Did this did this, you all jumped on it. That smell. We're a social. It's about people. But when I was young, I, me because I was an economics, that management was almost nonexistent. Business schools were almost nonexistent. The basic disciplines ruled. It was not social, was not in the culture. And so what you described, which I think is totally correct, that was not my experience. Now I would say this. I went to a big PhD program. What saved we got me through was my interactions with fellow PhD students. Surely, they're the ones who, you know. Yeah, you know, some wise person once asked what's more important, the journey or the destination. And I know some of you would argue one of the other. But in fact, it turned out to be neither. It's the people you travel with. And those people I traveled with the mass constant or the wind then as an assistant professor. And that in my early years doing research and then need these are the people got me through. But I would say there's been this evolution, which is interesting. Why that is that it's become much more, I don't know, horizontal. And certainly I remember in Europe, whether it was in France or say Germany where I went to where it was very hierarchical when I would give a seminar in the 1980s. First the professors could ask a question and then the doctor daunting could ask the question. Doctoral students. And then other people. Those days are long gone. So going back to, but for me, I chose a topic. And the reason I went and was exactly what Jonas said. I was interested in solving a problem in the world. And I found a way to do that in a PhD program through research. For me, that's always been the driving force. I think if you were, if you are comparing kind of the two different approaches, I think it's I think both you on and David were really getting at for me. It's so it feels like it's so much easier to go through this and stay motivated because I personally care about my research topic. And I mean, person I couldn't imagine going about it from another perspective. I know this wasn't exactly the question that was asked, but sometimes your people like people to talk to me about that. We'll say like, I really want to get a PhD. And then my next question is always looking at why? Because I couldn't imagine doing this just for the title or just because I feel like a doctor, It's brings me to something else. It the reality is it's a multi-year, long, like medium to long-term thing that you're really going to hate if you're not passionate about it. So I couldn't imagine coming into it without that sort of inner drive that connects you to the topic in that way. All right, I guess we would all agree that it's you should also be interested in doing research and not just do it a PhD for the title. Because then mean I even tell my students at this point if they wanted to pick like their death thesis topic, that they should obey interested in it, because I mean, I wrote like a bachelor thes's and the master thesis. I was interested in both topics that I wrote, but I can only imagine how hard it is if you're not interested in the topic and it will not turn out good. We can probably also agree on that. So there's, of course you need the interests. But I also think you need to look out what the community is interested or a society is interested. Because just because you have an interest doesn't always necessarily mean that other people are also interested in it. So you should ask yourself the question, well, could you contribute to the research or to society with researching your topic? And if you can find an answer to that imbalance like a great topic. And I said something. I think I have several colleagues. I mean, that I've worked with in different places that are a strong religious faith. I think it's really interesting. The once I know and work with how they are always able to kind of have that permeate their research from when they work on their PhDs and throughout. And I think that, I think for me those are really good role models on how you can kind of combine what are you realize we call Kiki now, what Keq is talking about here, do something that's important to the world and so forth. But also lined whether all were their own personal convictions and what they think is important. I'm not I don't want to drop any names here because but, uh, yeah, But I've seen a particular and those people that I can see it through their visitation and throughout everything they do. And if several of them are among our most successful in our field. So it's not a trade off that you do something that you think is important. And nobody else will think, I think it's important. I think it's the other way around. Like Jonah said, you more motivated and you can do better work. And get Andre is say Hmm to oppose her question. Sorry, there's my video. I got it. So what did you say you you'd be wanting to assume we say arm to actually ask a question? I'm not. No. Oh, oh, you mean to show up on the screen? Going to ask it in our own words. Okay? Yeah, Of course, yeah, I was like, Actually, it's really nice. Thank you to our audience than you are. And we have already be questions lined up and I'll, I'll take the first one now from CSM gov wash. As a young researcher at the early phase of my research Curie, I follow my passion and pursue research articles that I love and see value in. However, some people advised me to only focus on one or two aspects to build my profile in. I like research that focus on women, entrepreneurship, social entrepreneurship, social value creation, sustainability. As the sound, disconnected and distracted. Let's see answering yes or no. I think there's a lot to unpack there. So I mean, I think that whenever there's like promotion and tenure evaluations, I do quite a few. I mean, I think you want to see that a person through their career are known for something. So you could say if I think about the topic of XYZ, One of the first name that comes up is, is you I think you wanted to be known for something at the same time. I mean, I think it's at but another, and then also, it's also the way in to research what's really valued is for each individual paper, I should say, for each individual project, it's important that you go deep in a relatively narrow area, both medicine ideologically and theoretically. And in terms of findings, rather than doing a little lemma, everything, It's not good to build a theoretical model, combine the 25 different theories, for example, and look in at 500 different variables and saying that everything is important. So, but at the same time, I think you can combine several interest. You can still achieve those two things. But, uh, but combine many different interests and also think it's, I mean, of course you can also do research in, let's say, two or maybe even three distinct areas as a PhD, is it about I wouldn't I wouldn't advise you to work in more than two distinct areas as a PhD student rail thus can be too overwhelming, but I think that's, that's, it's not that needs to be cracked and I think it's it's not that hard to be honest, too good to be able to do this. Say home, You remind me of, I don't know of. I want to say Americans when they go to Europe and they want to go to Portugal. And they want to see Rome. And they want to see Stockholm. And they want to say, well, you get the point right. And they're gonna go and they got a week a go. Well, you get down, you know what the solution is, spent 20 years. And then you can see so that when I look at your interests, I've got it on my screen. You guys can see it to women, entrepreneurship, social insurance, social value. I mean, what I see is these are all great topics. Lisbon, great burger, most great outburst grade, and so on. But it's, I think what Johann says. I mean, I think in some ways the answers he says is, well, it depends what you do with it. You could certainly do something that's relevant to all of those. But in some ways, you've got a bigger, I don't know, it's a bigger umbrella basket, will call it Europe. And it was full of interesting places. And the key is to, this is what you'll aren't really getting at. The key is to pick something specific that you can have a meaningful experience with. But then going back to what you said, which very boring, but also mean something to somebody else like the scholarly community, then you've got some success. So one answer is, do you want to be a tourist and spend three hours in 14 different cities? That's what Johann does. In the freshman courses he teaches, I suppose, right? With some survey of some topic, right? Give it right. But it's almost in this when he said about this laser focus that you're going to actually contribute something to a very specific question that nobody's thought of or maybe they thought it, but I haven't been able to do. So. Actually, my answer is it looks good. And he yes, what you will do, maybe relevant all of them. But in the end you're gonna have a much more specific, specific question. I don't know what the Yona and tiki and Ron, you think about them. I mean, urine of struggling with all this, right. So actually I had the same problem or sometimes to have the same problem. I think there are so many interesting topics out there also when you speak to people, what other people are researching, I'm off, I'm amazed by what your topic somewhat as researching where I'm like, oh, I kind of want to do that as well. But I mean, that got you to have the time to do all of that. And I think once you narrow it down to a certain like maybe you are as you want, set two distinct areas within these areas, there's so many different topics. You can clap on that. Within your interest, obviously. Yes. So yeah, I think that's what I'm doing at the moment, but that's the stage where I'm at, at the moment. And I think now that I realized within these areas, That's so many other areas, yeah. That helped me a lot. And I think yeah, I think you just have to keep going and maybe pick one or two and see you see what's out that way you can contribute the most. I also think that it kind of depends on what, what phase of your journey urine. Because if you're very early in your PhD, it just makes probably sense to focus on one thing because it's already enough. Jonah, I mentioned that there's a lot of surprises the waiting for you, and that's really true. And if you try to do way too much at that in the first year, then it can get very overwhelming, I'd say. But then if you come closer to maybe trying to get like a professorship position or an assistant professorship position. Other thing, scan import and I just have like a seminar last week where someone shared his experience on those boards when they do decide on ten years and things like that. And they were he said that they are always asking the question. Yeah, you're researching that, but what else can you teach? And I think that's something to keep in mind of course, but you cannot diversify too much in an early stage of a career. And also, I think then it comes to thinking outside of the box because maybe you cannot teach like five different courses, like topic wise, but maybe you can offer something else. Maybe one of your strengths is to present something. And you could do like a workshop on presenting or if you're a good writer, then you could shared this advice with students and things like that. I think then. That will be my take on that. It's very great. And I think the mix of your responses to the questions, grade and night, if I just because I see a lot of questions from our audience coming in, I think they should get the questions answered as much as we can. I would like to ask you one that is somewhat related from someone who didn't mention the name. But the question is, what happens if one finds out midway that their research question has already been answered or just got answered recently. Well, I'm going to I'm not good at I'm going to critique. That's the wrong question. The right question is not happy, not what happens if one finds, but what happens when one finds? It's got to happen. Now, colleagues, What's the answer? And that's the importance of reading. At the beginning, you just, you really need to read. I think that as you're going into the PhD and then in the first stages of the PhD, you really need to be reading a lot and speak into your supervisor and your other colleagues a lot. So the other pretty firm grasp on the literature so that helps you kind of avoid yeah, moving in that direction. But then also, if someone else answers your exact specific research question, was your research question specific enough? I guess would be another way of looking at it. You know, the difference between between me and the rest of the panel is, I know move fossa. I think the book, he's the owner of the most famous Doner kebab. What he thought place in bus on. Maybe done right not far from the gateway. And I've actually met him. I mean, in the early days were very many customers. I talked to him and, you know, you know, he could've said I mean, in a way he told me. He says, Oh yeah, he thought that he was going to invent the Doner kebab and start selling into Berlin it as he did the reading that Jonas talking about, what he discovered is kind of, not surprisingly, he was not the first person to do it. Mark Twain wrote, the author wrote once, sex was invented, when I turn for G, while the donor who Bob was not infinite when multiple fossa got the idea. So what did move faster to do? And somebody wanted to help the great discovery or contribution from fossil made. Adding the vegetables. Yes, he had spent months. So he doesn't sit there and say, oh, it's been done before, because that is the phrase, the kiss of death that we all fear. Either in a dissertation, writing articles, is when the, the, the advisor, the referees, the editors said, well, it's been done before. And you know, you don't have to be just in Berlin to understand. Yes, the door to the kebab spend been done before, but not the waving fossils done it. And that's why we all know he's got the most famous Doner kebab in the world. Because he didn't say, oh, it's been done before, made a contribution. Which is to add because this is undiagnosed and you, of course, I'm trying to push the analogy. So when you were kid oh, it's been done before. We'll then find a way. I'm not saying add vegetables to your article. Vegetables are always good and healthy. But find a way to add to what's been done in a way that's meaningful. And I would say the reason we know about fossa, right, Andrea, is he didn't add ice cream. He didn't add, you know, what appeared as though he added vegetables, that was the right thing in appeals to the market. And in a way, that's why at my, you know, Japan might say no, no, you've, you've root word the question wrong. What do you do when you find out some exact all questions have been addressed? So what the challenges to either answer it's slightly different or to pose it in a way that hasn't been posed before. But everybody's going to say find what they're looking at. And that's almost a paradox of research that says you're lucky. You want to do something new and different. But the whole time we start out by looking at, say, well, if it were any good, somebody would have already done it. Exactly. Yeah. I would state in which you're worse off if you ask a question nobody else, it's as before. Because there are two reasons. Maybe you might know but S ask is just because a, it's not an interesting question or be it your question that doesn't have an answer. So I think that the fact that somebody has addressed this is a really good sign. And the good thing about research is that it's all, I mean, you can just look at it in any field, not only in social science but in science, there's always so much more to add. You know, you realize there's, the perfect study has not been carried out, the perfect papers not been, it would never be written. There's always going to be big, big gaps once you get sufficiently into the topic. And you'll be like Jonah said, you read all the literature on it. You're going to see there are big, big holes, big holes everywhere, which means that you can easily carve-out, do something unique. So I wouldn't worry the least. Johan, can you give us an example of a hole that you identified and the way that you filled it in you recycle. I could just talk about my first very first publication or saying that my first, I think I have one with my by that I mean, what? I'm actually the sole author. It's on entrepreneurial orientation. It's one of the most research topics in the world in the entrepreneurship. And it was that, I note is that virtually all, all research that was done was done cross-sectionally. So they look that entrepreneurial orientation and performance at the same time period. And all I did was pretty much to say, I think the title is something to sustainability of the relationship. So what I did was I got longitude data so I could see how large is the performance cross-sectionally, where it's hard to show which way causality runs. And then I saw how does that compare to performance one year into the future. And then more. I think it was only two years into the future. And I could show there seems to be sustainability and yeah, and it's got a cup. I think it's got probably a couple of thousand sites now since and it's well cited paper. And yeah, it's, it's not a great contribution, but it was good enough to get into good journal and good enough to get a lot of citations. So there you go. That's probably good for the younger members of the panel and most of the participants. So there you go. What, what I'm kind of hearing here, what what our advice would probably be is that you wouldn't need a change of perspective because that's also something that I learned very recently and probably you played a big role in that they were teaching me that. Sometimes it just makes sense to try to change your perspective on things. Try to think outside the box. Try to talk to people and try to approach a problem from a different angle and apps or a double research question that you want to ask. So pivot. Okay, moving on. After the question. Here's a question and I have to admit I don't read and speak Greek so I can read the name. But it's a great question that follows. The research question is, how are you sure or the methodology you choose is the best? Fit? Your bladder, your bladder viewers like you. Given that we're now, because if we're thinking about publishing and you'd never know who is going to be derived here. And that scenario and what opinion day would have on that. It's just you shouldn't make sure that it makes sense to use the methodology and then go with it if you decide that it makes sense that well, I don't know. Yeah, I think so. I ran into this. Actually once on the first my first publication, we ran into an issue where we had a blind reviewer kind of coming after her methodology a little bit. And what really helped us finding prior examples of the methodology being used in that journal or in other journals. And then adding that to our literature review of the methodology we were applying. So anytime you can kind of display, a lot of times it's about justifying your choices. So as long as you can always justify your choice by pointing back to the literature from journals that are either the journal that you're wanting to be in or where you're trying to publish or something like a similar caliber. A lot of times that seems to do the trick because chances are, as he said, You're not the first person to step up to the table. Someone else's. You'll maybe not answered your question with this methodology, but a similar question or in a similar area. And so there's always people you can look at. Provide examples. And maybe I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, no, no. Please. I just wanted to say I think it also always taps if you just talk to people that yields and if they think it makes sense or not. And also just talk to your supervisor, to other professors and they must stuff the time habit, take an opinion on that. And yeah, so I think that's also very helpful. And be asking that question or early like whenever marathon getting stage because that was not fun running into that at the pure. We were confident or methodology beforehand, but because we had talked it out with other scholars that have applied the methodology in similar type studies. But yeah, I mean, I would hate to get to and age and having not thought through that already, you might be doing that at the initial stage of your research. So I mean, that's that I think we said before about the social aspect. I think that I mean, I have multiple coauthors on all my papers these days. The one I mentioned was from 990 and I was by myself. But, you know, if if you're uncertain, talk to somebody who knows more than you do and ask them if they want to be a coauthor. And the second thing is send papers out for friendly reviews before you submit them to journals. And in this case, if it's a methodology, you hesitate. Try and find a piece. A guy, another person in the suite where we are, another PhD student, org. Standing about an OS more. That's the first two tanks. And the third thing is, I submitted a paper to a journal, gotta rejection. They said You must do Heckman correction. And me and Dean, we said, well now let's hack my correction. We didn't have a clue. So I went home. This is many years ago, I've bought a book, I learned it. I re-ran all the analysis, gets submitted, a paper got published. So if that's the third option is you actually go ahead and learn it. Somebody tells you it's not the right thing to do. You just figure out what is that? That's great. Sample. You know. I want to go back to what Jonas said when he said, Well, no. Gd. You remember what Sir? Isaac Newton's response was? When people said, how do you do all this great research. Remember what his response was? I don't. I know I know that Johann year-old, but you're probably not that all. His answer was Well, I stand on the shoulders of giants. That's one. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so the point is, Jonah says What is especially you want to be, going back to what Johann said a little earlier. You, you want to really have focus on, you want to be very clear what your contribution is, which means what are we learning that we didn't know before? If it's not the methodology, then went to join it at, say, he said, Well, look, stand on the shoulders of giants rate, other people have done it. That's what Johan did in the example you gave. You stood on the shoulder of a real giant, a Nobel Prize winner Heckman, right? And so you want to be clear, probably your contributions, not the methodology. So therefore, you want to see who else has used a methodology. Where has it been used before? Now of course, a simpler way to go ask mook fossa, because you know what's move fast as contribution. Is it the Doner kebab? As far as I know, he makes up the rest of the Doner kebab like all the others, right? So he stands on the shoulders of giants. Well, maybe it's image at a Doner kebab. And then he's clear his contribution is something on top so that you don't want to be inventing, doing something different with the, you actually want to do what everybody else does with methodology. Now you may be using the wrong one, the wrong place, at which point that all the suggestions about, you know, talk to people, communicate, get friendly with views and so on. Makes sense. But yeah, I also think that you should, at some point, you'd have to make a decision on that. So you cannot be be be scared of making this decision because Oh, well, what I meant with saying You never know that I had an experience with our first research project that we did. And we decided on a method because my older colleagues, they were like, Yeah, we already last time we had a similar model and then we did this methodology and then the reviewers wanted us to change it. And we did that. So it makes more sense to already take that one. And now we got into the RFP process with our paper with their specific Method. And then they asked us, why did you not choose the other method? Because that makes more sense to us to use that. And then we, we set together, we thought about it, we discussed it. We also tried it. It worked two and then we send them the table in the wrap your process. And they were happy with that. So we could stick to our methodology that we initially chose. But when I'm trying to say here is just because you chose one methodology, does not say you don't have, You cannot change it. Like Johan also sat. So don't be too afraid to make bad choice here. Try to think it through very good. And then at some point just make a decision with will walk you feel comfortable with. So another question that comes from a very different angle, but being an international education and research, I think it's a very valid question. Farm friends, coffee men's, how do you start your PhD journey? Especially or coming from Africa? How best or you are able to reach a professor or a supervisor who was interested in the area or fields you intend to investigate. I mean, not truffle now understand a crisis because you need, as far as I mean, I have been involved in admitting PhD students in a few countries and all the contours I'm aware of, I'm, might not apply to Germany because I never but it's like you have to be admitted into the program first, right? So I mean, you can of course you pick you can pick a school where you know that there is a person who does the kind of research you're interested in and then you can apply to that school. And then you know, if you're lucky or good enough, whatever, then you will be admitted. And that's usually the biggest hurdle to pass. So. Maybe somebody else understands the question better because I don't fully understand that. Yeah, might my sense Johann, of the question is in a way I want to say add doesn't matter what the question is. It's our interpretation, right? Like, like watching art are going to museums. So your answer is interesting. My sense of the question is that it's about globalization. And back in where is where I do have the experience of, we'll say, are the advantage of experience, right? Because when I started out on my typewriter, I have to say all you young people and in participants asking questions, how many of you are using a typewriter? You've all got it easy, right? But back then, to really make contributions to research it in the fields that would be roughly equivalent to what we're all in. You almost couldn't do it. In Sweden. It was very yes to our PhD program, so on. They were second rate. And there was a clear you had to go to Oxford, Cambridge, Berkeley if you couldn't go to those. So the answer would be, you've gotta move to those places. But we know that was before globalization. You were part of that process, Johann, where you got your PhD on Shopee, right? Was a big part of that process. And we know like every other industry, inactivity, Our business is globalize. So people can participate in Access independent of where they're located on the globe in a way that gets into Johan's point. I mean, everybody's kind of coming in whether you're coming in from I don't know, From yon Shopee in or you're coming in from Milan? Yes, places are different. But there's a global industry and most of the people starting out are trying to access it. Now that doesn't say how to do it in good. I think that's a very important question because in a developing country contexts like Africa, there's any, any of the panels have any insights. What would be different about that than say, coming in from? I don't know. Lowly are Umea up in the north of Sweden. So international education is one of the topics I look at and the way that it's moved in the last and most recent times is that the competition for talent is so strong now in the university setting, if you have a competitive application, I don't get the sense that it matters where you're from. It this though, if you're comfortable in reaching out to a PhD program directors in areas where you have interest or if there's specific professors who work really piques your interests, reaching out and making those connections, making information requests from those places. I was recently talking to a retired professor who into his doctoral program while he was serving in the Marshall Islands at, during the seventies. Whenever there is just a mail boat, they came once every two weeks. Luckily, we don't have to do that. A more tape it's talking about. So it's literally just about reaching out, making connections and information requests, and finding the program that's the right fit for you. I'd say, I would just say you got be courageous. Be brave. Don't be scared to reach out to those places that have the access to information and get that application out there. Because I think like Johan said, that's the biggest hurdle. It struck me that I know that many universities, I don't know about Indiana University, I'm sure know about Syracuse. University has come to understand. Our PhD programs are that say, they're racially not very diverse. And I think that's been a push in my university to have more racial diversity and some non-thinking. If you're from Africa and your black, I think it might be, you might consider applying to the US because I think there's a genuine interests, at least from my university, to admit more students of color into our PhD program. So that says that a little observation, I think it's the same. I know it's the same in many other other American institutions. Don't about Indiana specifically, but that's just a little, little thing you might want to think about. I would also like to add to Joe now because I think what you said is, is really important. But I also like to, to think about the idea that it's really important who your supervisor is and that you kind of get along with that person where we're again at the social level. Because I think if you just, if you're not fitting together in, in your characters, it can be pretty hard. So I will want to advise you to try to get to node a pupil first where where you would like to apply, at least that's, in my opinion like the best the best idea to do. Because that's like. They will be your supervisor, usually they're also your boss. And you will work with them quite a lot. And if you're not on the same page than that, I don't know if that makes sense to pursue a PhD with this person. Certainly, I have colleagues that don't match well with their supervisor. And our experiences are completely polar opposites. So I can only echo that. That's incredibly important. David, did you have a question to the panel? I have a couple more in the Q and a. You have once you go, Where did you go with your questions? Okay. Vary from respond again, a question. Right. Conversation so far I would like to know, how could I get a fully funded PhD program related to my field, that is economics, what do I have to do? It's a question about funding of that journey. Choose the country wisely. Yeah, we can apps like that's like a really dependent on, on the, on the country and how, how does systems are. They are so different. So you would have to choose your country where you want to do your PhD and then try to get information from. Or it choose the instance. Some probably that, that will be like country plus institution and then getting contact with the institution and talk to them. They usually have like an international office or advisory office or something like that. And they know best what advice to give you because we, I think we cannot, cannot do that here in this particular frame because that's just very, very specific. There's some good There's some good sources of information that you can start out IID from like General down to more specific. So there's a few different international education bodies where you can find overall reports about how the university system in those countries operates. And then that gives you a kind of a broad overview like, okay, how are these funded? And then what does that mean for the programs? And then at a country level, once you kind of identify mortar or if you already have an idea of the types of places you want to go. Each. They typically at a national level, there will be some kind of Ministry of Education, Department of Education website that has information specifically for studying in that country. And what it looks like how to apply for those types of jobs, what the funding looks like, how those decisions are made. Um, and then obviously, depending on your discipline, there are outside foundation funding and grants available. So there's a lot of different answers to that question. And I would really just say start broad and then move in more specifically, you'd be surprised how many funded opportunities are out there, but by no means are all of them funded. And that Sorry, Brad, you I go No, that's fine. I was asked to go with, I think business schools in the US as far as I know, every basically position it's founded, I don't know of a single business school in America that have non funded PHD positions might be completely different in, in economics, but I don't know. So so since we have yet to eight, I'm sorry. Don't be afraid to reach out to the people. I mean, if you pick the institution, then just there's a lot of email addresses on their website. So you can just write another PhD student. They might be able to help you at least find like the person that can help you at the institution. So this is already partially answering one other question. There was a question about and resources, some good resources for PhD students. What I would suggest, if any of you will have some kind of more general resources for our audience, we will collect them and me both share those with a follow-up e-mail that we will send out to everyone who registered for today. That will also include the recording of this session. So everybody, keep your eyes open for that. But one other question that is somewhat related and it is about writing. Would you recommend taking writing courses? If yes. Do you have any in mind? The second part of the e-mail, but what do you think about academic writing is something course on. It's an art for sure. I'd say it's also in some ways it's field dependent. So I'd say there's a lot of different workshop opportunities available for this type of thing. Like doctorial workshops are ano depending on what type of course you're in or whatever program you apply to. You might even have courses that work on this type of thing. Or you end up at a university that has facilities on campus that also work and skill building towards academic writing. But the tone that you have to re, with, all those things are little bit different depending on the discipline. But yeah, those. Once things are out there, and I would say that if it's not already a mandatory part of your program, that if you would feel more comfortable with it, those things are out there. And I also think that you should try to be honest to yourself. Like evaluate, try to evaluate your writing skills by, for example, reading articles and really not, not thinking about what they are saying like the content, but look at how they structure articles, how to make our arguments like that, the techniques they use. And then be honest to yourself and ask yourself the question, can I do that already or not? Because it really depends if it makes sense to do like a course on writing depends on what stage of your writing process you are, right? Because for me, for example, I'm not a native speaker. I have to write in English most of the times. It's been a struggle in the beginning and I think I'm, I'm getting better. But then again, if I read something that David wrote for me, that's really discouraging because I'm not that good yet because he is a native speaker. And that just means that I have for myself to develop a strategy on how I can get better with that. And so it's really, it depends on what you need. I'm going, I'm gonna stick my neck out to disagree with q cube it. So firstly, no, I don't I don't feel like you're writing courses because I think that it's, it's not the right way to learn. And I also kinda disagree. We kick, I don't think it's an art, I think it's a craft. Writing a paper and a craft you learn as an apprentice mark that with a master. So my recommendation is never write your first paper. I mean, I don't think you should ever write papers alone. But make sure you write your first papers with more experienced authors. And you know, you just write then they're going to rewrite and look at exactly what they changed and everything else. You said 60k about looking at pay pursuit. You're like reading. It makes sense to you in and see what they do and try and copy, but always work with more senior colleagues, swabbed, learn to think. And I think that's the best way because writing, you know, I know about these workshops, right? And let's say in sociology and writing and entrepreneurship is completely different. And it's also going to be different even for I didn't economics. So I think they are limited value and I think it's better to kind of write. But then when you're within your discipline with a more experienced colleague. So we can both agree that writing matters. I'm no, Johann as editor of ETP, I'm going to put words in his mouth. That's the difference between acceptance and rejection half the time, right? It's the writing. So it matters how to get there is an interesting question. But since we're all disagree with TGL, disagree with her too. Not that I'm not a native speaker. Yeah. You got that part right. But when I was you when I was young, I look back and know I'd be my articles were written terribly night and do what Joanne said which work? Because people to work with partners in teams back in the day. But this gets to both your points. And you feel yourself key because I read your work, you know, you're getting better. You get better at. It is what Johann says. You start to develop the craft. You craft the craft. And if you live long enough, you get worse. And a lot of things in life that you're writing, anything you put that focus on, it will start to get better. But one thing for sure you allege right. It's it's field specific for sure. Another angle. And I know that's also an important question for a lot of people. Does H matter for starting a PhD journey? And she has the question is specifically in the United State, is it too late for those who are older than 40 years? And I should say, one of the people I admire most in my field list recount. I just wrote a 10 year later forum last year. He is a year older than me. He turns 60 last year. So he must have been a bit into his forties when he started 4550, like I said, a probability 50 when he started. I can't think of it more like promising and an embedded scholars. I don't think it's not too late. I can't imagine the trouble with most people. I'll see now our age. And you know, this is that they kind of get stuck because they knew where fields were, they knew where methodologies were. They knew where the literatures were, and they stopped evolving, I guess, keeping up right? So when I saw with Maryanne Feldman, who was a giant of a, of a scholar. And she got her PhD. She's my age. You've got a PhD about 43. 44. And I still felt these, I still feel these little twinges of envy. Because when she entered the research that everything you do, people been talking about. Also that the kind of networks and getting to know people relationship. She was current at a person what a time. And that made her able to, it's not a coincidence. She's famous. For a certain work she did on the geography of entrepreneurship and innovation. And, you know, when I got my PhD, nobody was talking about geography. She came right after. Geography kind of became a big thing. And so she took it to entrepreneurship in the literature. And she's never look back, you know, the older people. Well, actually I was her age, not in dog years, but in real ears, in impeached years older. But we were not we we did have the same awareness she did. So you could actually say it can be an advantage that you can leverage to your advantage. And it also depends on, on your reasons. I'd say, well, what are the reasons why you wanted to do a PhD? And how, how do you perceive this whole program? Because if you, for example, see it as an opportunity to grow as a person yourself, that say it doesn't really matter what HER just go for it. Because you will grow from this experience that will be hard times. There will be times where it's great and things like that, but you will grow and so that's not connected to an H. And if you're interested in something, then just go for it. You're really expect you to, to get tenure very fast and things like that. And that's your reason for doing a PhD. You should maybe reconsider that because it's not as easy. You have to be persists and width with everything and my work out, it might not work out, but that's, that's also academia because it's also for the younger people here. We don't know if we will ever get a tenured position and things like that. So we're also in that unclear here. So that's really not related to age. I think. This is a o going, gone. That is a very good bridge to what I will use as last question that the end of the journey today. But it's also the question about the end of the journey. And I want to apologize to I think three people's questions. We haven't taken up in our 75 minutes today, but I tried to pick those questions will apply to most here today in terms of our audience. So Leon is asking, I want to make this the last question, but it's an important one. And he's asking about intrepreneurship research, but it applies to all see, oh, no, not at all. Maybe at most. In intrepreneurship, research, nephew job offers, but many applicants, how can I increase my chances of finding a job after my doctorate? What matters most university employees? I know it's a big one. You can take more than two minutes that you need to. I mean, we were hiring and we've hired every year, the last eight or ten years to Syracuse and I've had PhD student on the job market just about every year. And I've applied for jobs all over. So it's very simple. You need to have you need to have interesting papers at a reasonable state, at a very simple journal. So it's essentially that there has to be something about your research that kind of resonates with the place are interested in. And you must also show that this can lead to high quality publications. I mean, ideally you should have one or two publications to the top journals. I know that's a very tall order for it for anybody at that state. But, you know, a couple of papers that have really good journalist, it's way better to have one or two papers at the revise and resubmit state at a really good journal have five or 10 at the low level journals. So that will be my battery rapid response. And now you need a job market paper that you have lead and not your advice so that you can present in a very compelling way. What if you get a campus visit? I subscribe to a ton of open position newsletter, emails just to kind of have an idea of how that market is moving at any given time. It's there usually multidisciplinary. But since they were asking specifically about entrepreneurship, if you're geographically open, there are opportunities, especially in university systems that are public. Entrepreneurships, an issue that some social and governmental relevance. And so those two institutions are either being created or being added to it and creating whole departments, you name it. So there it really does seem to be a lot of opportunity if you're open to where it is. And then in other fields, I think that also kind of holds true. I think a lot of people asked me where I want to go whenever I'm finished and I'm always kind of thinking like, well, wherever it is. So I think if you really gotta maintain an openness geographically, your opportunities probably aren't as limited as you might think, regardless of what the disappointments, no one else will last for it. I found it was a great answer for that question, but I don't want to cut anyone off. Well, then, thank you so much. David, Johann Jonah Raja, and I'm philistine. It's been a great pleasure. I am sure that this recording will be watched by many who couldn't join us today. I think this itself is a great resource for people. In your shoes. I see pneumonia and Jonah. So thank you for making time for us and for everyone else out there. Have a wonderful rest of your day and evening. Stay healthy and I hope to see you all soon again and one or the other way. All right. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thanks, everyone.
This session aimed to familiarize IU faculty with the complex European funding system and to take advantage of opportunities through IU's longstanding international partnerships.
Description of the video:
Good morning. Good afternoon and welcome everybody to our roundtable discussion today entitled Navigating the European funding landscape. My name is Tim and Helweg and I'm Academic Director of the way Europe gateway in Berlin. And it's my pleasure to welcome you to this roundtable discussion. I'm very excited about it and really very grateful for those that have joined us as presenters to learn more about what's available, what's not, how researchers can gain about that. I'm thinking about expanding the horizons in these directions. Before we get started, I wanted to my thanks to the Office of the Vice President for International Affairs and the IU, but with gateway network for sponsoring this event. And thanks to the help of undergrad or more and on adult church for helping behind the scenes and administering this. Many thanks to them. I also want to thank those, help. They reach out to them and say thanks to the Office of the Provost for Research here at Indiana University for their help in promoting this event. So I'm happy to have three speakers with us today. And what I'd like to do, I'll introduce them and then they'll each make some remarks present there. They're just some brief presentations, and then we will have plenty of time to open up for Q and a two-year from all of you. So with us today is box I'm Nicholas. She is Program Manager for Europe at the office of the International Science and Engineering Program at the National Science Foundation will be speaking about international and European partnerships and availability to the NSF. I'm also happy to say that with us as Diego summer, I toggle, who is Deputy heard of unit the European Commission Directorate General for research and innovation. And he is with unit F1, which is international cooperation pertained to Europe, the Americas, and thematic coherence at DG, the EU Commission. And last but certainly not least, we have Joseph Shah who is Associate Professor and Associate Dean for Research at the School of Public and Environmental Affairs of Indiana University. And and Joe will be sharing his experience with Horizon 2020 research platform. So without further ado, I'd like to turn it over to Roxanne and hear from her and welcome Roxanne, thanks for joining us. Thank you so much, Tim. I'm glad to be here and I am going to share my screen. Is that showing up for everyone? Yes, I see a thumbs up. Thank you, Joe. So as Tim said, I'm with the National Science Foundation. I am in the Office of International Science and Engineering. I'm the lead for the countries and regions cluster. And also handle the EU portfolio as long as well as the UK and a couple of other portfolios. So I've taken the liberty to go a bit beyond Europe, to talk more about international more broadly. At NS. Get my, there we go. So just a little bit of background. The National Science Foundation, this federal agency, we fund research, that is our job. You can see our mission statement there on the slide. We don't conduct the research ourselves. We receive proposals and work through a merit review process to review those proposals and then give money for researchers to conduct the work. We do research in science engineering, and education across all fields of all fields, as you can see on the slide here. We don't really get into medical research per se. We do, It's fun. Some basic research, development of instruments that would get into the medical field. But for the most part, we believe the medical clinical research to National Institutes of Health. The NSF vision, in a nutshell, are in a single slide. The three pillars you can see across the screen there. We are focused on advancing the frontiers of research, ensuring accessibility and inclusion. And you will, you will see that theme come up a number of times that probably is obvious that the National Science Foundation supports research. We are also extremely interested in stem workforce, stem workforce development, so they go hand in hand. And then the third pillar most relevant to this presentation is securing US global leadership. When we talk about securing your school board leadership, I have to emphasize that we do not mean that the NSF or that the US is out there in front and we're leading the way and everyone else must follow. That's not at all. What we mean. What we mean is that we lead by example of how we conduct research, how we review research, that sort of process, that the process of science. So leading, leading by example, leading by the different processes that we put in place. See the bottom of the slide there. Underpinning the three pillars are a foundation of innovation and partnerships. So again, relevant to this presentation is that the partnerships in particular, I'm thinking in terms of partnerships broadly. Not just partnering across academic institutions, but partner across sectors and certainly partnering internationally. You may be aware, you may have heard that NSF is looking at a potential new research directorate that we refer to as tip. So technology innovation and partnerships. We will we'll have to see how that plays out in terms of our legislative process. So for NSF, but looking at, at a potential new directorate, really, really bringing innovation and partnerships message into focus. Then getting into more about the international engagement at NSF. So these are the three major focus areas of international and you will see they are very, very similar to the previous slide. So again, that idea of promoting a globally engaged workforce, advancing research through international partnership. And then again, that US leadership and looking at the global S and E agenda, just to say again, that does not mean that the US leaves and everyone follows. But again, leading by, by some of our processes and how we would work. Digging down a little bit beyond those three focus areas and looking at the core values. So what are we trying to accomplish? What do we pay attention to when we consider international collaboration mechanisms and opportunities? I'm going to repeat myself a few times here. We're just sort of drive the message home that we want to engage in international collaboration when it enhances research, when it progresses research, and when it enhances education. We absolutely want to make sure that partnerships are reciprocal, that it's a mutually beneficial relationship, that all parties bring something to the table. That doesn't necessarily mean dollars. It could mean knowledge, a technique, access to a site, a piece of equipment. But making sure that it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. Connected with that is the next bullet, networks that link expertise and leverage resources. The fourth bullet, again, just to hammer home the point that student engagement, early career opportunity that develop, development of the stem workforce is really important to us. And then the final bullet that ties back to the US participation in the global landscape is that commitment to openness and data-sharing When doing international collaboration. Of course, there are challenges. Tim referenced that there are challenges. And these are probably not a surprise to anyone. When you're dealing with different agencies in the US and different agencies around the world. There are different processes, criteria, policies, guidelines, constraints. Those are all things that we NSF, we try to work around whenever we are pursuing or have them place an international collaboration mechanism. Many things have to be sorted out before we, we present an international opportunity to the community. Of course, program cycles and timelines of those. Another thing to work around. And then just different national priorities and looking beyond the agency level, looking into at the national scale, what are the research priorities? Those can be different. Another thing to consider. Then getting to some of the nuts and bolts here of actually funding international activities at NSF. So I sent an international office. But most of the support for projects that include an international component actually come through the research directorates that you see listed across the bottom of the screen. So for folks who aren't aware, NSF is set up with research directorates. In those units are the ones that handle the incoming proposals, the processing and review proposals, and then getting money out the door to the successful proposals. So most support for projects with international components come out of those research directorates. They can be through GE, regular old programs. They can be supplements to existing awards, or they can be targeted opportunities. I'll talk a little bit more about those in the next few slides. The yellow rectangle up in the corner of the screen is something that I need to point out. That NSF is very open to international collaboration. Almost every program welcomes and international component, an international colleague being involved in the project. But NSF almost always only funds the US side. Something very important to keep in mind, there are rare cases that must be very well justified where we can use NSF dollars to support foreign personnel or foreign entity. But those are cases where the equivalent resource knowledge access just cannot be efficiently or effectively duplicated within the US. So then digging a little bit, I apologize for the many words. On this slide. It's not a very friendly slide. But I leave it behind for reading later on if you're interested. So the next few slides are cover a few of the different mechanisms that we have at NSF for supporting international collaboration. This is not meant to be comprehensive, these limits be just examples. So the first is what we call a lead agency opportunity. Through a lead agency opportunity. It is a mechanism whereby US and foreign researchers come together to draft a single proposal that is submitted to one agency. And it undergoes a single review at that agency. And that agency is called the lead. So that agency takes the lead and receiving, reviewing and then making a funding recommendation on that proposal. The point of the lead agency getting to the why is that? It's, it's meant to reduce some of the uncertainties are barriers to collaborating internationally. For example, US researcher wants to collaborate with someone in country X. Us researcher submits a proposal to NSF. They had to take their chances on what the outcome of that review processes, breathing your in-country access estimate the similar proposal and take their chances through that funding mechanism. So under the lead agency, it means one proposal, one agency 1 review process. So getting rid of some of that uncertainty of having to go through to review processes. The lead agency, as I mentioned, makes the funding recommendation. The non lead agency honors that recommendation. Each, each country's researchers are then supported by their own funding agency. So we have this sort of an arrangement setup with the countries that you see listed here. And then you can find more information online about, about each of those. I will take this moment to say that I'm an expert on some of these. I am not an expert on many who do. So. I will answer the questions as best I can and then probably have to do some following up on specific questions. So then moving along, we also have Dear Colleague letters. Dear Colleague letter is a very typical communication mechanism that NSF uses to announce opportunities or share information with the US research community. So through Dear Colleague letters, again, not a comprehensive list, but we do have announced opportunities working on supplements and in quantum information science, for example, that when it's not current, it may or may not be currents come next year. We may have another opportunity on that particular quantum supplements. On the second bullet specific to Europe. Nsf does have an ongoing collaboration working with the European Research Council that enables us researchers to, who already have an NSF award. We supplement that award to allow them to spend time working in the lab of a PI supported by the European Research Council. And then just a couple of other examples here. I won't go into details, but you can see computer sciences that also was directly connected with, with the EU or sciences. So. Topics run the spectrum of fields that NSF supports. A couple of other mechanisms. Dear Colleague letters are more open. Open announcements you to community solicitations are very targeted. They name a specific topic and they name a very specific guidance to the PIs on, on what to submit, how to submit when does cement? So we do use those very targeted solicitations to to foster international collaboration. So you can see again a few examples here, spanning, spanning different topics. And then finally, under the category of other, There's the transatlantic platform for social sciences and humanities. There's the Belmont Forum. Internal to NSF. We have opportunity called research experiences for undergraduates. There can be international research experiences for undergraduates. Specific to my office. We do. Mostly what we do is science diplomacy. We foster international collaboration. We work on all these different agreements, but we also do have funding opportunities. You can see the three programs here. The first one, iron's, is focused on student experience. The second one called pyre, that's focused more broadly on research with education as a nice side note. But pyre is focused on research that can only be done with an international collaboration. So it's not, an international collaboration is a nice thing to do. It's that international collaboration is a key component. But being able to answer the research questions posed. Third, we have what we call telnet Excel that does not necessarily fund the research itself, but it funds the connections between networks of researchers in the US and networks of researchers overseas. So I like to call it the connective tissue is what Axel that supports. And then bringing it home here. Second to last slide. There's a lot of countries in the world. Obviously, there's a lot of things happening. We have different collaborations with different, different countries. If you just go on to the NSF website and look at NSF OISE. It brings you to our homepage. Under additional resources. You can click on that and you can see the list of program directors who are responsible for the most active countries. And those are the folks that are, that are key for talking through what the opportunities are. And that's it. Great, nice electronics, I'm sorry, helpline or no, I appreciate your pointing out some of those places where resources and I'm sure we'll have some follow-ups on mobile, so that's great. Next, I'd like to turn it over to Diego's emerge on all from the European Commission and killed him. So I'm going to share my screen to this icon. Right. Sit Okay. Coming on. There we go. Yes. Perfect. Okay. So I'm so today I'm going to give you some basic information about your program for research and innovation. Horizon. You wrote to the new program that has just started this year. It's like it's a federal program that is published temperature years. This one will last for seven years, this year until 2027. And the basic information is, we started with the budget. Budget is quite, quite, quite big. 95.5 billion Euro that are available for researchers and innovators in Europe, but also beyond Europe. This is the biggest European funding program ever. And it represents a big increase also compared to Horizon 2020, which had a budget of €77 billion, but that one included in UK. So now the situation is different. So over the next seven years there would be thousands October topics and cause founded an already in the two-year. In the first two years there will be almost one topics and almost all of them, let's say 97, 97 percent of these topics will be open to US participation. So that's the good news. I wanted to pass it to you at the outset. Then the program is there. Well, the budget is distributed in different parts that I will explain that we can tell later. Debulk the major parties to the section on global challenges in European industrial competitiveness. And this is where we are we trying to address, if you like, societal, societal challenges. And one-quarter is for excellent science, that's basic triangle by basically search. And there is a new section on, you know what, in Europe, but maybe this is going to be Cara. Well, I hope so because the business structure of the horizon Europe, which is not that simple as accursed image. I will try to focus here on the central part, which is usually like a specific program implementing arising Europe and European emission isn't took technology. So there are three pillars. Again, like an acid and a sample. You have three pillars, ego, yeah, 1 second could you maybe restart your, your presentation? We see black bars. One of them is actually above the one of the pillars. So maybe you can just restart. Bars. Yeah, yeah, it is. There's a VC black bars over part of your presentation that you can just stop and reshare. Maybe it goes away because we didn't have that problem earlier. I will share. Stop. Share. Went up. So I share again. Thank you. I'm very sorry. I'm going to introduce one. I want Perfect. Thank you. Up. It's coming up again. It's coming up again. Now. We yeah. Again. Yeah. It's there again. I wonder if it's assume that. I'm not saying that. But maybe that's all right. Okay. So okay. So now saccade so I was talking about three pillars. The bulk of the budget is on Pillar 2, global challenges and a European industrial competitiveness. And this is articulated in different, what we call clusters. Addressing and peak, if you like. Themes lead to the most important challenges, societal challenges that you're facing. And not only Europe, health, culture created in society through the secret inside the digital industry, in space, climate, by economy, and so on and so forth. And included in this part. There's also the Joint Research Center here, if you like. The idea is to give a direction to to the funding that we provide to collaborative research projects. So the, the, the themes and the content to recall and the topics have been designed through a long consultation process with the research community, citizens, with the companies, and also with the member states in Europe. So here, if you like, is the top-down part of the program. Where are the exact objectives are each called the topics I'd be fine, foolproof. Including this part is also Joint Research Centre, which is department of the commission that is overseeing a series of research centers, uh, laboratories in different, in different countries in Italy, Belgium, and Spain. And the Joint Research Center supports policy making, but also they conduct actual research. Then Pillar 1, it's about excellent science. This is the more bottom-up part of the program where we have, where the Europeans, such concepts included. The grounds by European Research Council are very like selective and we'll call it, used to call it like a normal Nobel Prize factory. Because many Nobel Prizes have sooner or later received the grant by European Research Council. Meaning that these grants are not only generals, but also toward that only the best proposals and to the best researchers in the words. And again, the interesting information for you is that's a American researchers can apply. I can receive funding by the European Research Council. And the same, The same goes for the muddy is Carlos quick reactions that are more for like a PhD candidates but also for postdoc. And they also support and mobility researchers between exchanges, the researchers between European institutions and American ones, and then research infrastructures. And then the part which has been, if you like. A big chapter in Horizon Europe is Pillar 3, in particular with European emission cancel. And the idea there has been inspired actually by the US model, by the darpa model or the RPA model, whereby there is funding made available for high-quality but also high risk, a deep tech projects intended to actually to be, to be developed and implemented in Europe. It's actually like this part, if you like, is less prone to international cooperation. Now, before going into lots of opportunities for us researchers have like simply two, to put it, international cooperation component or the rise of Europe. And so our strategy for international cooperation. Last May, the Commission issued to the so-called communication. Communication is basically a policy document, an official policy documents prepared by the commission and presented to the two college Slater's that the Council and Parliament as checking if you like, the main principles and direction, which policy and this one was on international cooperation, research innovation, and NVIDIA know BIM. The basic principle is that wound European research, policy and funding to be as open as possible to international stakeholders. So to promote openness is yet more victories in recent insertion ration, but with the difference compared to the past, meaning and more attention, more emphasis also maintaining a level playing field and ensuring reciprocity. But also like protecting the European values. Like and research integrity or academic freedom. January, quality, and and open access. For now. The most important one, the first defers the tool for promoting this strategy is to, to, to strengthen multilateral partnerships. I will believe that by teaming up not only with one country, but with several key strategic partnering countries and most effective before addressing challenges and the objectives linked to the green and digital transition or to go. So here under this and she like an actual lying abs to promote initiatives like Mission Innovation for the all Atlantic Research Alliance and several other initiatives. And if you look at, but there is also the bilateral cooperation that is important. Here. The idea is to, to really, to invest in policy dialogue and cooperation with key strategic partner countries. To be selective in doing so, and to focus only on few selected shared priority areas. Of course, the US is one of our, if not, the key strategic planning control for you. And I very much recommend like voodoo, climate of cooperation and openness to international cooperation with the, with the, with the new administration of courses. So we believe here there is a lot of potential for working together with science policy and funding organizations like the NSF or the partner battering and G or not, or NIH to define together shift priorities and to follow up with some concrete actions, coordinate elections. Yeah, and now in a nutshell, okay, the rising Europe is also supporting low and middle income countries for which we provide funding. We provide funding. Whereas for the industrialized in highly developed countries, the EU does not provide such a finding. But there are some exceptions, exceptions. There are some interesting exceptions, relaxation we mentioned. So I will not repeat this. Maybe only mentioned the association to rising Europe, which is well for information is the possibility to associate the some countries beyond the neighboring to horizon Europe, countries that have a high level of development. And also they shall become democratic values and principles. Now, how to participate for, for, for us researchers and innovators. Of course law, they have to team up with multi beneficiary consortium. So the idea is to run for the US actors to work together with European ones and submit a common proposal to the problem that will be assessed and selected and funded. The successful. So these projects, these proposals are typically involving many more three countries with three partners. But typically there are many Min-woo having many more of them. Even up to 20 partners in one project, because the project by gate, the budget can range between 500 to have 220 €1 million per project. And there are some tools that can facilitate the search for a partner. And one is mentioned here in the finding and tenders portal of rights in Europe. However, there are some cases in which modern beneficiaries are also accepted. And this is also interesting for you in the US, as I said before, European Research Council grants or the married couples got grey actions. Now, remember at the beginning I said that are more of almost one topic In my work program 21 to the two open to participation from researchers from all over the world. Now you see 200 plus, which is only a fraction one doesn't because these 200 plus topics over actions, how shall I can explicitly and specific, encouraging international cooperation for, for specific countries and regions. So it's a subset to the 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0 topics is available. But 200 topics arch like and particularly encouraging international cooperation. That is seen as a kind of a good value for the proposals. Now I want to go even deeper and looking at topics which are targeting specifically cooperation with the US. There are several of them in different areas. I tried to list here the most important ones is not exhaustive, but just to give you a flavor of different, if you like, and areas, topics and objectives that you could pursue together with European searchers and prepare a proposal for eventual funding by arises Europe. So in cluster 2, this topic is politics and global governance, or policies and indicators for sustainable development. Cluster 3. First responder capability gaps. I'm just reading it on a clean slate or the days all these topics, but this is just to give you an idea. And then if you're interested in some of them, of course, you can research into the horizon, your portal, and you can find all the details of the requirements, the timeline, and how to prepare and submit applications. Everything is really provided in the portal. Classifieds. Climate, energy mobility is quite crowded, meaning them many topics that are specifically targeting and encouraging cooperation with us. You see them listed here. There are many of them are linked to climate goals, to energy, renewable energy, sustainable biofuels. And there are many on connected, cooperative, automated movie ID. And then gases six also some opportunities, interesting opportunities. Features here. And social politics of nature-based solutions and nature-based therapy for health and well-being. But then I wanted to go back to cluster 1. Because this is a special class of one is about research. And there is an important exception here because US entities, organizations, researchers, companies are eligible for horizon year of funding. So they can be funded, they can be included as equal partners in the proposals and Selectric projects. They can receive funding as any other European realization. And the reason for this exception, which is a multiple important exception, is that we should like me, I'm an agreement with NIH whereby the NH is also a funding and funding European researchers applying and I'm playing and were selected in the projects funded by NIH. So this is a way to reciprocate this disagreement. Here. There is a lot there are a lot of opportunities because already for the first three years then more than 50 topics and open to, to the US. And you see here, there is a wide range of areas in the field of f. Now, very briefly, multi-lateral initiatives. So in addition to participation arising Europa, we want to promote cooperation with us through the lateral initiatives Mission Innovation is a very successful one on clean energy and search. The whole Atlantic here, Michigan relationally main interlocutor is US Department of Energy. Than the all Atlantic Ocean Research Alliance is about studying the function over the ocean, how it can also contribute to find solutions for climate change, for addressing climate. And the main interlocutor here is a NOR. Arctic research is also very interesting and politically very important. International by the photon or the group of earth observation. And then we field or else there are several, there are many multi-lateral initiatives where the US is engaged. And our commitment and efforts is to, to reinforce our bilateral dialogue with us so that together we can be stronger partners within these multi-lateral initiatives. I mentioned irregular somebody scribbles quick reactions which are fully open to us researches and you can also get funding. Got civil actions from Dr. v2, path exchanges and global fellowships and European Research Council. This also, as I mentioned before, these are shrew-like and high hi, high-quality, large-scale grants that are given to principal investigators from any country in the world and also American researchers and back into funding as long as they conduct their research Europe, by the other Harker can be conducted in the US. Now, little practical information. You're finding in tenders portal of rising Europe. There you can see really a lot of information. Can search by topic. So you can, you can also look at previous projects for partners and for your projects. It's quite a comprehensive tool that's I encourage you to use, of course, if you're interested in teaming up with European organizations. And with that, I conclude my presentation and some links that can be useful for you. And I thank you for your attention. Thank you. Thanks very much. I really appreciate. Great, great overview. So I'm happy that bust out your things hour in just the Shah is here at Indiana University with the only US school and British artist respect evidence experiences, transatlantic cooperation. Perfect. Can everyone hear me and see my slides? Awesome. So let's put this together and realized that I do a lot of talking about the science I do bit, but not a lot of speaking about how we actually go about getting our funding. So this was a little bit new to me, so please bear with me. I tried to to write it from the perspective of of my experience with two Horizon 2020 projects. It they're very sequential in nature. 11 was we submitted our proposal in 2015 and the other in 2020. One we were not successful but, but ranked very high. And the, and the other one, we were successful. And so I'm trying to build experience off of that that might be useful to this and to put this in perspective and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Horizon 2020 was the predecessor to the horizon program that he just discussed. So I think there'll be several commonalities between my I think my experience is still relevant. But but again, he can step in and cut me off if any of this isn't them useful anymore. But, um, so we were engaged in, in two projects. They have some of them, I'll go buy them by their very short titles of a file of talks, which was the one that was not awarded and precision talks, which was awarded. I just want to note that these were considerable funding amounts. And and to put that in perspective, I am put up here my attempt at some, some clickbait with, with this image. And what I'm showing here is just the frequency distribution of the amounts awarded. And I think there were 3,778 what were called Research and Innovation action projects. And well, most averaged and this is a pretty high average in this kind of $5 million range. And half of them fit between 3.26.2 million. There were some really large investments made in science by this program, including the one to our project, which ranked, I think in the top 8% and it was around $25 million when you do the conversion. And to put that in perspective, these are some NIH efforts that launched ink and catalyzed major, major initiatives within the US. And you can see that that Europe's investing heavily. Science and putting a lot towards these projects. So I wanted to give you that kind of individual project perspective because I think that that's big and, and to really make the point that there's a lot of money on the table here. And it's going to a lot of good, good, good science. Will. You know, when I was putting this together and I do want to say, you know, I'm giving a perspective. Our large group says you're going to come to find out, I wasn't the core writing team for both of these projects. And that gets down to about a number of, of of five individuals. But I'm definitely speaking on behalf of a lot. And some of it's my personal experience and some of it's kind of the group experienced. This was my personal experience. I found that navigating the portal that we just saw, that funding and Tinder portal. It was definitely a learning process. And just navigating the RFP was, was indeed tricky. And I clicked a screenshot from the get support page of the first one. He quickly realized that one of our task is we have to build a lot of partnerships when all of most of the help features here are how to go about actually acquiring partners. And you'll see that at least the projects we are engaged with required quite a bit of, of partnership. And the partners for ship was spread around Europe and the US. It was also spread around academic institutes and industry because in part of it were tasked with translation. And my interpretation is, is one of the ways that the European Commission succeeds in translation this to really pull in industry in some of these final, final steps. And so this is a look at our, our, our two projects. And I've kinda put them both on the left and on the right. The, the, the phyla toxic. This was our initial one. It involve 28 partners and 12 countries. And you can see none of these were from academia. I ten where from public research institutions. This would include in the US teams like Lawrence Berkeley National Labs. And it also include the small and medium size enterprises. We scaled that back a bit and our, and our latest efforts and reduce that down to eight countries. And you can look at the distribution here. One of the points I want to make is that, you know, when you look at putting one of these together, one of the biggest things is building this team. And for us as academics in doing this in kind of the circles we typically run. And in the US we had built teams that were full of other academics. They also engage some of these research institutions. But we were struggling to come up with some of the requirements around small and medium-size enterprises. And we were fortunate to have the help of the European Commission. But one of the big helps here was, as Diego said, it was really critical for us to get to know that the Joint Research Centre in this because they play a role is, is, is honest brokers, they end up partnering with winning bids. So they don't care. They don't go in as collaborators on the proposal, but they have to work with anyone who comes up on the proposal. So they were very great at giving us good advice. Telling is kind of where we had holes and telling us some suggestions on how to fill those holes. And it was really comforting and talking to them because they, they are really fair and how they do this and they give advice to the strengths and weaknesses of your proposal without mentioning any other. So it made us feel good that they were doing the same when they spoke to other teams. But I will say and this first one, we were probably a little late in the game and, and getting, attracting some of the small and medium-sized enterprises because many of, you know, it is limited space. Some of these directives are more focused and so you got contact some of these businesses and they're already engaging with other teams and, and, and many don't want to to partner with more than one team just to keep things. I'm open. I don't know if there's restrictions on that or not, but we found many of the groups we approached had already partnered with teams. And so in the second effort, that was probably the first thing. The thing we did first was really to secure our team. I do want to say that these proposals are very different than even like sinter proposals through NSF, our program projects like P450, 2D6 through NIH. They're laid out differently. How you bring the components together is, is very different. And, and because of that, it can take a little bit of extra time just to, and you can see how ideas and how you present these things develop over time from our, our first effort here with this. Kind of work packages that we presented in a figure like this to a scaled down six work packages in the, in the second proposal. When really work package 1, 2, 3, and 5 was what was being delivered with the first projects, we really kind of scaled back how we did this because one of the things you have to do is convince the the commission that you can manage this project. In the end, you have a bunch of partners that are coming in and they're, they're putting up a heck of a lot of money and you have to really convince them that this is something you can deliver. And so I really want to, to make the case here that it's much different. And because of that, it can take up a lot of time. I think for the first one, we probably were about eight months of of of work organizing. I think when it came to the rioting, we held a meeting and I was trying to pull up my notes and couldn't find it. It was either late October or early November of 2014 with the due date of of of late February 20, 15. And we took the approach which was entirely wrong at that time, to distribute the rioting across all these groups. We laid out tight schedules and we thought it would just be a management effort to get all these pieces in in time so that we could edit them and and deliver a proposal. About mid January, we realized we were failing miserably through this kind of distributed effort approach. And we went to really a core team effort. There were think was the first week of February, there were were five of us that that landed in a some kind of bed and breakfast or hotel room in, in Heidelberg, Germany to, to say, let's take what we have and, and get a draft of a of a proposal on paper as quickly as we can. And we did that. And I think it took us about 10 days to turn that into something that could then be edited. The problem that we didn't realize this first go around with that. You better get ready for the tables because there's a heck of a lot of tables that are are required for these submissions. And I remember probably the last full week of this submission just probably on like a 24 hour clock, just typing in information in tables, trying to just get this to be a legitimate submission in the end. And, you know, all that to say is, is, is we did get it and I'll show you new stuck into something that was really funny about that submission that also goes to navigating that portal. But, but by the second effort, we were much more savvy and how we did this. We already knew we were going to use a core team approach. We, we got the team now doubt right away, we really streamlined kind of how we wanted to deliver things. When we started out on the second go around, I think we were still at 10 work packages and we really narrowed that down to six and we were trying to push it down to to even getting it to fewer. And we made the strategic decision to hire. She might go as a writer, but she was definitely a thought distiller and a science translator. Her name's Elizabeth Andrews. She's actually based out of Bloomington, Indiana, but she she's done work on on many of these Horizon 2020 proposals in the past. I don't know her success rate, but she certainly was successful for us. I've worked on or with other projects. I can't sing her praises enough for pulling these large efforts together. And in fact, we've even hired her as one of the science translators for, for this project moving forward. So I told you it can be tricky navigating this portal. I show you here the deadline. So this means the portal closes. You can't do any activity after February 24th at 7800 hours in Brussels. And high note right here, we made that deadline all of 17 seconds. So it sure was a big effort to try to get this in, but it was if you were scrambling at the end down to the very last second thumb on that first go around the other one. We are really savvy in and had things down. Well ahead of time. I love that screenshot. And here's where I want to just note that that these efforts take a lot of time and it takes a lot of time to build. So I think I said that first effort, we started about almost a year out. So sometime it in We had actually formulated our idea and 2013, this opportunity arose in 2014, and we submitted it in 2015. We were able and I should note that despite that kind of hectic operation that I, that I presented to you, we actually did quite well. We learned. So we submitted it in February, I think it was June, we learn that we had to participate in we had the opportunity to pursue to participate in a hearing. They had one at some follow up information from from our group. I think they gave us a very short turnaround time on that. I remember having a meeting one day and then logging in. I think it was three in the morning to participate in this hearing where we were answering questions for the commission. And when it was all said and done, we weren't selected for that project, but told me we're we're in kind of the runner-up position. Like it was really down between our project and, and, and one other. So, you know, we could have just ditch things that, that effort and, and run our separate ways, but we took a different approach. We leveraged that finish. It has given us some, some leverage within, at least around this topic of precision toxicology. It a given us some awareness with with especially with the regulators because this was this one was one that was really being done on behalf of, of, of regulators. And we formed a spin off kinda consulting firm from that, that allowed us to go in and consult directly with those regulators. So we, we're, we're now getting a collaborative consulting projects through the European chemical agency. Through this spin off, we had grouped together by forming a large consortium and not letting them sit idle. But during that time, we put proposals into a couple of IU grand challenges. There were two, McArthur and 100 in and change bids that we we put in four, and we put an application into the to the United Kingdom grand challenges research fund. These were all really large efforts. And then the call came around in 2019. And in fact, it was one of our colleagues at the JR see that really drew it to our attention and suggested that we kind of pull our team back together to, to put this in. We said, well, our teams still together. So that was that worked out well. So what was the 2013 to 2020, 18 years and seven large proposals, and we were finally successful. So it does take time to kind of build these and put these in a position where someone's going to feel comfortable handing you a large check to go out and change the world. And so now we're tasked with how do we build this into kind of the next steps and and and secured the next pieces of funding. And we're already working on that. I might just have a few post awards postwar thoughts. First, I want to thank you for agreeing to have dispute settled in Brussels because this turns out it's the number one sticking part in. Once a proposal gets judged successful in actually setting up an award. And in fact, we lost at least one partner. And I think it was two partners during this process because there and one of them was the was the NIH. Despite Francis Collins efforts to, to get kind of reciprocal funding flowing between Europe and the US. Nih couldn't sign off on some of the details of the contract. We were fortunate here I want to say that the program officers there are just amazing. They knew all the partners inside and out. You're like, well, how well does someone and, and, and Brussels know someone at Indiana University. But as soon as the NIH dropped out, they were doing work with fruit flies. They said, Well, your partner, Indiana University can pick up all of that work and, and not miss a beat. And we were already thinking along those lines, but it was nice to have a really on top of that program officer to do that. I want to note that the the proposal deliverable bulls are, are more contractual than I've ever dealt with, were tasked with delivering. I'm delivering these, you know, it's not we're, we're not tasked with giving it our best effort. You know, it's still science. Science is engaged in here, but the deliverables have to be handed in at the end, were contracted to do that. And the management is very different than the US. One of the biggest deals is that budgets on reporting on 18 months cycles. So the other thing with the budget that I thought was very unique is they cut us a check for like 40% of everything to kind of get things going. And then when that runs out, you know, we're we. Request these dollars, but then they don't come in until every 18 months. So it's just kind of a new thing to do to get used to and how words are, are, are men. And so anyway, that's all I have. Thanks everyone for giving me the opportunity to tell about my experience. And hopefully it's, it's useful to someone out there. And I'm happy if anyone at IU wants to discuss this further or seek any guidance. I'm I'm happy to chat about this and at anytime. Thank you. Hey Joe. Or fortunately, you have been through this procedure and it can charge them and sites. So that was really, really helpful. So thanks very much. I want to, I want to turn it over to see if people in our audience questions. And and I think it's great, It's our purchases through IU. If you have a question, you can turn your camera on, that would be helpful. That's a possibility, but also, I think the best way to do it, like they use the raise hand function, which is found under the reactions tab at the bottom of the Zoom portal. So that way we can sort of feel the questions as they come in. And so if there aren't any questions, I absolutely as well, but I think I want to I really want the opportunity for some other people thought. And to maybe clarify or ask our presenters questions. I can I can kick-start, but you also could, but basically as a question, yes, please. Yes. Thank you so much for this very informative session from all levels from and I asked them not, not from a knife as one and say u and our colleague from Bloomington full weren't quite extensively to reach this extraordinary milestones them, Thank you, Joy. I'm a professor with IU School of Social Work and I met recently kitchen community to engage education. And my question is if my recent partners are not only part of the EU countries, for example, you also have Bosnia as wild lands constable. My question is more to diego. If the horizon Europe on so targeting those countries. Thank you. Good. Diego. Yeah. Actually, the country saying been named memory to Europe. They can become associated to horizon, to horizon Europe. So that means that once the association process is completed to sign an agreement, like a treaty with you. And they're, researchers are treated exactly like researchers from a human, the state. So you're fully eligible for funding. So if you want and we can not say that to the program targets this country because these countries, I fully intend to fully integrated into the program. So yes, of course, you can also include partners from from these countries and yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Great question. Thank you. Team. By the way, I didn't recognize you as a team with a beard. For this wonderful presentation and given as a broad information and encourages us to apply. I do research in Latin-America. I do research about municipal governments and sub-national governments in the region. I found that it is quite difficult for me to applied in to good ends related to the region. So I would like to hear then it buys thrown all of you to I need to partner with someone else in the region in order to apply for grants or me, I do a directly draw Indiana University. A lot of rocks and your thoughts on everything? Yeah. Claudia, thank you for the question. We don't excuse me. 1 my thoughts together in real-time. So NSF, we, we don't have active, active collaborations. I like a formal mechanism really in much of Latin America at the moment. So for us it would be you, you Claudius the US PI applying to an appropriate NSF program. I'm sure you already know that the your colleagues then from Latin America would. At least from the NSF model, would, would need to seek funding elsewhere. So we don't NSF is not we're agnostic as to the the country. It's more looking at who's the team? What's the, what's the research question? How is the team working together to answer that question? So I don't I can't speak to who you're working with, but but for us it would be, you know, who's, who's, who's the best team to pursue that, that research project. As I mentioned before, It's very rare circumstances where NSF funding would go toward a foreign person or entity. It is possible if that person or entity doesn't have, they have no means of getting their own funding. And they provide a resource. Resource, broadly defined, if they provide a resource to the project that just can't be replicated through a US source. So I feel like that's not a very satisfying answer. But the way that NSF works, That's, that's the advice that I have at the moment in Cuba. Diego, I wonder from the US perspective on that, you mentioned, you know, lesser, lesser developed countries, or is there a way to triangulate thinking about your partners in that way? From selling euros researcher, yes, indeed, you need timing then. Nothing America down to b, sub continental countries in different political developments is so we provide them a commission provides funding for civil like American countries, presence of Argentina now for it. I mentioned those or not, I'm not funded. The Brazil isn't funded. Mexico and Chile. From this year, also Colombia and abundant on the other subpart of it or funding. So what I mean, and of course, or whether it is better to have several countries represented or not. Well, as emits opec, not really RNAs. We don't need, you don't need necessarily to have researchers from different countries from Latin America, except in one case, except when there are topics or calls that refers specifically to CELAC. Celac is care group of Latin American countries. We have a specific dialogue in agreement, a new strategic roadmap between you and these countries are Ks, of course, would be It's quite natural and important and that you involve researchers from other countries. And of course the neon American colleagues and organizations can also join. And if we're talking about health and L for Ariadne in US, organizations are also eligible for funding. Thank you, Dean. Thank you. Great repressors when no SLA. Thank you for great presentations. This was very informative. So my name is Sarah software. I snack, I'm a professor at the IU School of Public Health. And I work mostly in the areas of machine learning and statistical methods as they're applied to health applications. So one question that I had, and I have to say I have to admit right away, majority of my funding comes from NIH. Unfortunately, my NSF applications, and this is not a job that Dr. Nikolaus, but they were not as successful as my NIH applications. But the question that I have actually two for the panel is, I already have some collaborations in Europe. They are not necessarily in the countries that NSF has bilateral agreements. For example, I have collaboration in Poland is not something that's I, I'm just trying to see where I could go next to develop them more. Maybe with the finding both from an assault from horizon, not for other European programs. I know it's a very general question, but it's something that has been on my mind on rots on the one you are today where I can I can start on on that. And I, it's probably a very similar answer to Claudius situation with, with Latin America. So I will say that though we do have these typically bilateral collaborations with the countries that were listed for that, those lead agency opportunities. Just to say again, that international collaboration can be part of any proposal that comes into NSA. It's just a matter of where the funding then comes from for the partners. So for Poland, you're right, we don't have a formalized mechanism working with the funding agencies in Poland. But that doesn't mean that you can't have a Polish collaborator on proposals that come into NSF. It just means that they would have to seek funding through other mechanisms. So that's the sort of the beauty of the lead agency opportunity is it eliminates that uncertainty of going through two processes. So yeah, gosh, the way that, the way that the NSF works, it don't have much I don't have much good advice to offer. I would say that talking we always say regardless of the circumstances that talking talking with the program director of that particular program is always a great thing to do beforehand. And seeking whatever advice they have for that particular program. When looking at international collaborations and proposals that we do receive. Broadly speaking, looking to make sure that the, the team that's pulled together is a true team. What are the, the components at the different, different researchers are working on? That. All of that blends together to really push ahead whatever the research question is. So it's not like a nice ADL, I'll add on that someone from Poland is there, but it's truly an integrated project and everyone is bringing something to the table. Yeah. Jared Diego, any thoughts on this was a good good question. I was raised. Okay. Okay. Other questions. Thank you. Roxanne? I had one y one question. I thought it was E R. I wanted to ask a question about your reflection on Joe's experience. I know you may not see the whole. First I thought hearing about the team building was really, really helpful thing brought up researchers at IU was based on your experience, Diego, was that sorted? Typical typical of other stories you've heard or or needs to build these transatlantic teams or, or how much do you think that, that shows kind of persistence and staying with it is grateful, is, can we generalize in terms of speaking to the success of other Horizon 2020? Now horizon Europe puzzles. It has affected that most of the grounds resident 2020 and now also in the rise of Europe on quite large, should the budget is large, up to 20 million new rates have really big, big budget and they involve a lunch, large number of partners. So this, this creates really a big complexity. So I mean, I can only, if you like animals, share a solidarity with Joe about all the efforts that he has done. That's structural thing. It has been a decision to target big project. So meaning fewer projects, but with the bigger size rather than many hundreds of thousands of smaller projects. Okay, It's a difficult process, of course. This being said, the success rate is between 10 and 15 percent. So it's very competitive. Main, main, main proposals that prepared and submits it. And beyond those who are eventually selected and funding. In fact, there are many other, many other proposal which are very, very good quality. So meaning that okay, it's possible, it requires an F4, but it's possible given the possibility of getting 20 euro. Of course, this requires an investment and there is a risk that this investment doesn't pay off. Course as an API competitive processes. What I wanted to mention is that in Horizon 2020, there has been a quite strong participation by US organizations about retirement critically about 7800 participations, or which almost 400 in collaborative projects, which are more like time-consuming and more substantial. So almost 400 US institutions went through the process and were selected for funding. What were selected, were selected them in the project were selected. Some of them were funded. Other, other we're not funded. And then there are some 1400 participations into money. It's Kronos cuckoo reactions. Also the biggest share tree-like of third country participations in Horizon 2020 comes from the US. And also importantly that beam. And that's really a remarkable 200, 200 ERC grantees from the US. That's quite very large number and got very important funding and to pursue a really high-quality research. So I mean, so far, the USS scored very good results. But of course, seeing on personally, I think it's not enough if we look at the potential and signs of us and that's what we will try to do from now on in the next seven years and to step up if you like. Both of the participation, rising Europe, but also the dialogue and the coordination of actions between NSF or with other funding agencies in the US? That's good to hear. Yeah, I know, I know in my own field and political science, we often think about partnering with European institutions, should think about ERC or are those kind of platforms. Because sometimes the fun, the other charities or the calls are more aligned thought were interested in doing that. Some of the eggs, NSF, or vice versa. So I think, I think researchers need to keep that in mind, right? Especially if they are working with collaborators. By a lot of us do that are based European universities in an agency. So I think, I think that that's a good point. If there are any other questions or thoughts I had I had I had I went Jonah Joe, humans. Remind me, did you mentioned that you had tried I guess I wanted to hear a little bit. I bought your your team's decision to pursue funding through Horizon 20 running just on a basic level and maybe mentioned this and I missed it, but was this sort of seen as Horizon 2020 is probably the best spot or to get the kind of debt for your project or was it a sense that there was the NIH or NSF or other agencies that you could have gone through to us just tried but didn't didn't find a good fit there too. So a couple things. So that's a great question. It was the first opportunity that came out directly around a platform we were conceiving. So in other words, the kind of science behind a large consortium of us, we're, we're kind of developing. And it was the first one with a directed activity towards it. I also want to say it because you said is it, Is it better or this or that? Just the way the the, the question the the way the RFP was ask and it's very applied nature and directing towards deliverables and that kind of, you know, more contractual nature of it. We didn't have to worry about some of the things that probably would've killed a proposal like this going up and as it was written in front of NIH or NSF in that, you know, when you just some of the science we used gets task as fishing expeditions and things like this. And, and in fact, we we had conversations with with Wojciech who's now the director of NIH S. And he's like, Oh, good grief. I don't know how I can help you get this out of study section. So we're working on that. We're working on, on how to, to put this fourth and in the US environment, but just the structure that proposal are allowed us to, to, to do things in ways that were required different than opportunities in the US at the time. So it did in some ways fit better. And the, the kind of last point I want to make is that our first effort that we put in the US wasn't allowed to to to receive funds. So all our funds had to come from post docs visiting our labs and doing work that was funded through this in our labs or graduate students shared. And it really wasn't until the kind of the second one we're going after with kind of the rules had changed and we were allowed to bring, I think it was some significant funding to, to Indiana University from, from this project. Thanks, Thanks for sharing that. That's how cool. I didn't have one last one other question that I get to go have questions I can jump bang. But I was, I also, I thought maybe Roxanne and people might be interested to hear more if you can speak more about this technical innovation partnership that might be coming on the horizon. That sounds very interesting and I think. Do you have any inside, inside the Obama? They feel they need to pull up talking points that we've been using and those of other presentations, but I don't have handy. So I can say that it's it's a a new director. It that's that's under consideration. We are I think everyone knows for for us, our fiscal year ended unless a month ago and we are working under what's called a continuing resolution, meaning that we don't have our our subtle budget for for fiscal year 2022. But against that background, we have there's positive reaction undoing this new director it, or something like it coming from the, the House and the Senate. It's meant to, it's meant to really bring together. As the title of the director says, technology innovation and partnerships. It's really meant to put a finer focus on, on that aspect of the research enterprise. So our director likes to talk in terms of applied, applied research versus basic research, or looking at the spectrum of, of the research enterprise. You'd like to talk about it as like the two strands of the double helix of DNA. Like there's the blurring, the lines between basic research and applied. So that gets more to the innovation piece of it. In terms of partnerships. I mentioned briefly during the presentation of partnerships broadly, not just not just academic, not just government, but what about the private sector? What about NGOs? What about philanthropies? So really considering prompt partnerships, perhaps a bit more broadly than NSF had before. So we will, we will wait, wait and see Tim to see how things play out. But it's, it's really an exciting new sort of lens. I think at NSF. Taking some taking some pieces of work that we're already doing across the other directorates. And again, just focusing so focusing in on that that aspect and technology innovation and partnership. Okay, well thanks, it'll keep our eyes on, I think it's a great idea that by creating a new director at your kind of highlighting that rather than keeping it buried right within other projects, programs, and directorates you aren't already having. So it might just be a positive reorganization to kind of, you know, pop up. So that's great. We're almost out of time. If I wanted to just ask our panelists and there's the other points that you wanted to make our comments directed, Diego. Yes. Your team? Yes. Just finite final comment, actually a piece of information you may be interested lean. Like to introduce you to clone BATNA, who is one of the participants, is our science counselor in Washington DC since the beginning of September. So he's part really on our team working really in tandem with us, with us in Brussels on promoting relations and cooperation with the US. Position animation. So I'm sure, I mean, you can, you can, you can contact him and count on him for getting more information horizon Europe. Also another mission is prolonged. You want to say a couple of words? Or thank you, Diego. I'll be very short just to say hi and say I'm available for any additional information you might need. It's true that with the online tradition we have started two years ago. There's enormous difference of being in DC or Brussels as you can see. But of course, if your planning any events in person, I'm happy to join. I'm available for traveling all across the US and I'll be happy to promote the US participation in Horizon Europe as you have them greatly today, Diego. Thank you very much tool and I'll I'll leave my contact details in the chat. Thank you. Excellent. I was just starting to ask if you would mind doing that. That's great. Thank you. Okay. Well, if there are any other closing comments I really want to for coming out times, I really want to thank all of our presenters, rock San Diego and Joe. And I hope that you, you and the audience and those participated found this useful. Please tell your colleagues about this. This, we will make this recording available. And I hope that this can be kind of the basis for and do that, do let me know any feedback whether you'd like to with focus and other regions of the world, the weather, how we at the, at the IU gateways can help with your international engagement in international research collaborations. We really want to, to be a partner with AI researchers on this field. So thanks very much. Thanks again, Andrea and Annabell and have a good rest of your day. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Thank you. Bye. Thank you.
European Encounters is a virtual meetup series between Indiana University faculty and colleagues in Europe. The encounters provides faculty and their European peer(s) with a space for interesting intellectual conversations on a specific topic of joint interest.
Description of the video:
Hello and welcome. My name is Andrea Adam Moore. I'm the Director of the Indiana University Europe Gateway based in Berlin, Germany. It is my great pleasure to welcome you all to another session of our European Encounters, which is a very informal gathering of IU faculty with European colleagues. And we have a very special session today. And it is my great pleasure to welcome my dear colleagues. Michael Brose from Indiana University and my friend, Antonina from Jagiellonian University who I first met I think it was in 2018 when we hashed out the idea for a workshop at the Europe Gateway about Sinology during the Cold War. And today's session is, well, the celebration of the product of that workshop that actually took place in November of 2019 at your way. And the product that came out of this wonderful gathering is the book edited by Michael and Antonina, Sinology during the Cold War. I'm sure you'll get to it - hahaha, there it is, on cue. So it's wonderful to have you both here. Also, all your contributors, or not all, unfortunately, not all, but most of the contributors to the book, to see most of the participants of our workshop again, even if it's virtually today. But I congratulate you all to this wonderful book, and I'm very happy to welcome you all. Just a few remarks on the technical side for our outside participants or audience, we will have a few words of welcome. And after that, we, that the book will be presented by the contributors. End. After that we'll have some, some conversation between the authors before you all will be invited to ask your questions, and we would like to ask you to put your questions in the Q&A section of this Zoom webinar. And our moderators will get to those questions towards the end of the session. But please feel free to put your question in at anytime during the webinar. With this, I would like to hand it over to my colleagues from Jagiellonian University and professor Joanna Dyduch. Thank you and welcome. Thank you very much. Your colleagues, your friends. I'm really delighted and really privilege that I can on behalf of the Institute of Berlin far is based at Diego learning recipe. To participate in this book talk, I must say that we are extremely happy and proud that these started in 2019. Corporation resulted with such a wonderfully amazing proved the publication that getters academics, scholars from I would say many at, let me, a few countries. Among them, united states, Mongolia, academics from, academic from Austria, Romania, and Hungary. So this is something that we really appreciate and, and we really, we are really, really happy about it. Just to mention that just yes, the day the book publication has been a global acknowledged during the ceremony and he said if the faculty council and the presence of 200 and it was addressed to 250 community members of our of our faculty. So thank you very much for inviting me and also I'm really looking forward to hear and to listen more about the book itself. And my, let's say, personal gratitude to Antonina, who gathered and who inspired colleagues from and who coordinate the work of colleagues from our institute. And it's really great to see among the authors of this important publication, important volume, five colleagues from the institute. So once again, thank you very much and I'm really looking forward to learn more. Thanks. Thank you, Joanna. Thank you. Thank you for welcoming us and for your very warm and kind words. I have the privilege to say a few words about the book before we move on to the first part in which all of our contributors will have a chance to say a few words about their, their papers. So as the title of the book suggests, we're actually talking about the two very hot topics you might say. Because so one element of what we are going to discuss and what we discuss in the book as the Cold War. And it was already stressed by, um, we started this project in 2018, I guess, before the very cold war became, so to speak, a sexy topic. Because right now so many experts say that there was a Cold War Two reality and making the kind of comparisons between the current Sino-American revelry and the original Cold War. However, we kind of started it before it became fashionable. Again. There's a kind of interesting thing and of course, the second element is China itself. However, in Boca, we do not really talk about China. We talked about how China was perceived throughout the Cold War. How China wants, describe how China was. What scholars, what experts were saying about China and how they present in China in their works. So you might say that we are referring to good old Nietzsche: "There are no facts, there are only interpretations" and these implications we're going to focus on. And I guess this is the most important lesson that we can draw from this publication lesson to us living in 2022. How much our contexts, our environment, impacts on the way we perceive the world. In democratic countries, we are very proud to say that our eye can then yeah, it's free and we are free to do whatever research you want. However, in fact, we do also have our own problems, our own challenges. In a way, we also have our own lenses. They are not communist nurses anymore. Yet there are still some sort of lenses would also impact on how we perceive the world and China. In this particular case, I hope we will have a chance to discuss the contemporary research on China and how we perceive China in our countries today. Later on in the Q&A session. So without further delay, I have the pleasure to pass the microphone at the product. These people, to my pal. Hi everybody. Welcome and thank you for joining us in this introduction to this book. Let me give you just a few words of personal background for the origins of this project from my side, because I am not a scholar of the history of China studies. So I come to this somewhat new, but actually this, this idea of, of understanding the history of China studies or Sinology came to me already in 1992 when I was living in Taiwan as a, as a graduate student at National Taiwan University. And towards the end of my stay, a big conference on sinology in Europe though, or the history of sinology in Europe was, was hosted at National Taiwan University. And ever since then I've been fascinated by views of China from other parts of the world. It's not a topic that has been exhaustively researched or written about. But ever, ever since sitting in on that, on that conference in 92, I've thought and especially since I've been involved in China, studies as a, mainly as a historian, I thought, isn't it important to understand how other intellectual spaces view and viewed China? And when I met Antonina, the two of us began to talk about exploring this topic in some depth. And, and it occurred to me. I'm talking to, I'm, I'm working with a colleague from Poland who is a young and rising star in the world of technology. And yet, I don't know thing one about her environment, her intellectual environment, her the, the, the intellectual legacy of similar logical studies in Poland. And so I, I proposed to Antonina that we examine this topic from what I would view, at least from my position in the West, as a almost completely understudied area of, of intellectual discourse. Sinology, as done from former Soviet Bloc states during the Cold War. So that's kind of that, at least from my end of things, this is one of the, one of the reasons that we came up with this intriguing workshop at which has culminated in the book that we're introducing today. I think for me too, this is, I'm really thrilled with the outcome of the workshop because we, it exemplifies cross-cultural collaboration. It also exemplifies what I think is an ideal coming together of scholars from a range of positions. But also we have a range of, of, of experience from very senior scholars to, you know, rising stars. And, and most of these people's work, at least to my knowledge, is almost unknown in the West because they're publishing in their own native languages. And unfortunately, people like me don't read Hungarian and Polish and Mongolian. So I think this work is fabulous. I wish that we had had the space to publish even more. But perhaps in a subsequent workshop, we can extend the study. As Antonina also said, I think, I think this study is important, not just as a historical artifact of what was done during the Cold War. I think there are also huge implications for, for those of us who are in similar logical studies. There are also huge implications to understand what, what is China doing now, because we all know that China is rising. There are obvious parallels to the situation regarding China and Russia's relationship during the Cold War today. And I think there's a lot, even if it's not explicitly addressed in the articles in this book. I think there's a lot that a person can take out of these contributions that will help us better understand the situation today. So I think with that, I'm going to turn it over to my colleagues and let the panelists proceed to tell us about their work because they're there the voices we want to hear from mostly. So Antonina, can you remind me who is first? What what's the order of of of progress here? Absolutely. I think we can follow the order of the articles in the book. That means that it would like to invite Professor Jerzy Bayer who has the richest experience when it comes to sinology because he served as a diplomat, but also as a journalist and a scholar. So Professor, could you please tell us a few words about your intriguing and very much paper to add on to that. When we were talking about this, this introduction, this, this Zoom meeting, I would also like to hear from panelists if they wish to do this, to also talk about that. Provide a few thoughts on, on contemporary issues. It, but that's completely up to you. I know that's kind of outside the scope of this particular book. Okay, Professor buyer, please. Hi, Good. It's my great pleasure and honor to talk to you. I have to apologize for my technical problems. I think they arise from that. I hate technology and IT in particular, and the technology high hates me. So I had been struggling, you know, fiercely to get the picture. But my video doesn't work. So the only way we can communicate is just to use voice. And to start with, well, I've, again, I have to say the time. 100, you know that my chapter, my piece is an introduction to the book. And as Michael and tend to lean, I've already told you. It may be the case of my, of a specific feature of my story because I had been loyal to this special, to go sinology for a more than 50 years now. But I kept changing forms of carrying out my profession. I've been a journalist, Dealing with the East Asia. When I worked at The Press Agency in Poland. Then I spent seven years in China as a permanent correspondent, also covering Mongolia and North Korea, the communist part of East Asia. Then high changed my job and became law, became a diplomat. And finally, I decided to be a scholar because during the day, my employment for a ministry just don't currently, I kept writing books, books about China's history, about the history of Sino Tibetan relations, about Mao Zedong. And this is exactly the area I tried to focus on. I mean, relations between China and some neighbors. Then history with a special focus on modern history and contemporary and present political affairs. Well, it may stem from me. First professional and I was journalist who was very closely following events in China. I was a professional China watcher, both when working in Europe and when employed in China proper. Then, due to such a comprehensive feature of my story, I think it was chosen as an introductory chapter. Because what I, what I want to show in my chapter is the general picture of sinology at the backdrop of the communist system. That's why I deal with the, some problems sinologists and, well, I think other fields of Oriental studies had to do with, under the communist system, it was only not only the case of Poland, but the same thing happened in Hungary, in East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Mongolia and so on and so on. For example, the lack of funds to have access to Western literature, to be able to participate in exchange of scholars in international conferences. Then the question of censorship imposed by the Communist authorities in all so-called socialist state. Then the case of well, personal and political freedom were, as philologists, like each and every scholar and researcher working in the field of international relations had to do with home the very exact censorship and the imposition of so-called ideological correctness up on all the academicians. So it was not possible to express one's mind in a free way. Everything had to be subjugated to the official policy which was perceived by the ruling party and by the Communist state. So I deal with these problems in the first case. Then I present my own, let's say, intellectual CV and show how I fulfilled my sinologist mission. And finally, I present. Fields of activity of Polish sinologists, I had to do it. I mean, those who were my lecturers, my professors, because the first-generation of Polish sinologists as still remembered, the Second World War or even decades before the Second World War. And then they are immediate successors wherein people who joined the sinologist profession after the Second World War and particularly after the People's Republic of China had been proclaimed. And then on, on the base of ideological, on the base of the ideology and the close contacts between the Communist China, communist Poland. In our case, many students have had the chance to study the language and history and literature and so on and so on in China. So they form the second generation of you sinologist. I'm, I done to present the case of the third-generation because these are people who joined the profession after the political breakthrough, I mean, after 89, 90. But whatever I had to do with in the 70s, in the 80s is described in my chapter. So to be more specific, I talk about research in literature. Turn in history. Can religion? Because that was a very interesting and rich study in case of Poland and also in philology, translation, including very specific and very detailed to word translation by one of Poland's leading philologists . So these are a major topics which I touch in my, my chapter. So I hope it will be useful for those who would like to have an idea about what problems we had to encounter in Eastern Europe just to have any idea of China. Thank you. Thank you very much, professor, I must say, but your paper was absolutely fascinating and what was striking to me when I sell it for the first time. And when I listen to your paper during our workshop 2019, is that how much, how much attention was paid to the writing? Chinese, but not really the compensations. And it was shocking how we were describing that they were pretty much know or almost no classes of speaking Chinese into as you had to practice your listening and speaking skills through listening to some radio programs, some Chinese radio programs. So it was absolutely, absolutely something revealing. Now I have a great pleasure to introduce Professor Susanne Weigelin-Schwiedrzik, who is very well known German sinologist. And I must say that Michael and I were absolutely thrilled where Susanne, when Susanne accepted our invitation to join our workshop, as she's a very, very well-known and distinguished specialist on contemporary China, the 20th century history of China, including issues such as the memory of the great famine and the Cultural Revolution. Susanne, the floor is yours. Thank you very much, Antonina. especially for your generous introduction and fall, providing me with the opportunity of introducing my chapter here. Thank you also to language, to have invited me to be part of this project. And I must say that I didn't hesitate a minute when I received the invitation to accept the invitation because I felt at the moment I received the invitation that I had to do something which I had not done so far, but which I should have done much earlier. I remember very well that my professor, professor v2f. He told me after I had finished my doctoral thesis. Now you have to write something on the history of sinology in Germany. And I was very, very young at that time. And that's sort of looked at him and thought, if I do this at this moment, this will be the end of my career. And I think this was maybe the main reason why I didn't do it at the time. But now I'm at the end of my career and it's very easy for me to speak up on some of those issues which I have encountered and thought about since the 1970s. Although the paper which I contributed to this book is not a personal remembrance of what has been happening among German sinologist since I had come into the field in the early 1970s. However, my paper is also characterized and impacted by my own experience of sociology in the Cold War. As I tried to answer a question which has been at back of my mind from very, very early on. How come that in Germany, especially in the western part of Germany. The, what we call modern China studies is a very, very marginalized field, even within the field of sinology. So up until recently, the majority of my colleagues in Germany and in the German speaking world where actually people who focused on Ancient China, on ancient Chinese philosophy, history, literature, or you name it. And they did not work on issues related to contemporary China. However, when I entered the field and 1970, 1970's, I had two reasons to actually decide for myself that I want you to go into a totally different direction. I want it to be a specialized specialist on modern China. And I decided to do this at the age of 16 when I was in the United States as a high school student. And with this sort of reading the newspaper and saw that China and the US were actually re, approaching each other. And because of that reason, I will suddenly received an enormous amount of information on contemporary China, which I had never received by reading a German newspaper. And I realized immediately that use about contemporary China were very, very diverse and that people who stubbornly rejected China with just as many as those who maybe naively sort of had hoped that if the US and china could come together than the world might change fundamentally. And so I already decided at the age of 16 that I want you to learn modern Chinese. However, at that time, German universities did not provide for the opportunity to learn modern Chinese at a high level of proficiency. And the only school that actually provided this opportunity was steam them enough. Or you entitle search bar, which is a very special school that had been linked up with the German Foreign Ministry right from the beginning of the Weimar Republic in the early 20th century. And the wonders Republic Deutschland, the Federal Republic of Germany, sort of inherited this institute. And it wasn't Institute in Boston and affiliated both with the university it and bond and with the foreign ministry. And this is where I learned my Chinese and only a fuel. A few years later, only two years later, I was given the opportunity to go to China and study in the People's Republic of China. In the situation when the Cultural Revolution had still not come to its official end. And when Mao Zedong was still alive, I encountered him dying in 1976 and I was at Beijing University studying philosophy. When the so-called Gang of Four, the entourage of Mao Zedong, including his wife, were suddenly expelled from office. So I went through really, really interesting times and was very short. I wanted to be a specialist on modern China. How come that all the other colleagues didn't do it, didn't take this decision. This was the starting point for my contribution to this volume. And I tried to give a couple of different answers to this really, I think, interesting question. So first of all, I looked at the geopolitical situation of both East Germany and West Germany and might understand immediately that east Germany was part of the socialist camp, had very friendly relations with the People's Republic of China up until the Sino-Soviet split in the 1960's. And for that reason, people who went into Chinese studies in the German Democratic Republic actually decided to go to China to work on contempt issue is related to contemporary China. To learn the language in a Chinese speaking environment. And to be enthusiastic about China. Whereas the people in the Western part of Germany, the Federal Republic of Germany, decided they wanted to shy away from politics. So their conclusion, drawn from the experience of the Third Reich was actually that they did not want to get involved in politics. And their conclusion from the Western Germany, its relationship to the US and Western Germany being part of the western hemisphere was that we leave it to the Americans to actually look at contemporary China. We look at ancient China and we don't get involved into politics. So the easy answer would be, so in Eastern Germany, people were not shy to get involved in politics. And they actually were very enthusiastic about modern China after 1949, of course. And they were enthusiastic of having him the opportunity to go to China and study there. Whereas in Western Germany, people shied away from China. People actually did what did not want to get involved into the analysis of contemporary China. And for that reason they went into ancient Chinese issues. However, when you look at the situation more closely, you will realize that in both parts of Germany, many colleagues from the phonology actually tried to not get involved into politics in Eastern Germany. This of course became a very hot issue once people realize that the relationship between China and the Soviet Union was not very good. And when they started anticipating the split and when they split, it finally happened. So those people who had been in China, who had been really enthusiastic about China had some way somehow solve the problem of being looked upon as not a 100 percent in line with what the Soviet Union and the leadership of the German Democratic Republic actually wanted them to be like. So their reaction was, why don't we shy away from involvement into politics? And where did they go? They didn't go into ancient China. They went into linguistics and eventually developed a very, very interesting study program which was focused on developing the capacity to act as an interpreter and as someone who did translations. And in German, in the western part of Germany, in the eastern part of film, you would both Sea Peoples trying to shy away from politics, looking at China from an angle that would not make it so difficult for them to shy away from politics. It is this shying away from politics, which is now haunting our field. Even after reunification. We are still shying away from politics in a situation where the broken tension between the United States and China and Russia is actually putting Europe in to a very, very difficult position. And I think it is our duty as specialists on China to help our population and our decision-makers to take informed decisions. But the field, not up to this kind of challenge. This is mainly what I wanted to add in my contribution. Thank you very much for listening. Thank you, Suzanne. This is your paper and interacting with you in the workshop with it's fascinating to me that one of the things that really strikes me about your comments, this, this business of, of sinologist shying away from involvement in, in political affairs, right? Or political history really strikes me. I, I'm trained as a historian and I will never forget one of the first encounters I had with my PhD advisor at Penn. He explicitly told me Brazi, never get involved in Chinese politics only, only study the past. And I think that this, you know, as historians, we are conditioned, historians are conditioned to look at the past, not the present. But I have always found this. I've felt this to be a mistake because I think historians also can weigh in on the present based on what happened in the past. Anyway, I will move on. I could talk at length about this, but it's a fascinating interaction people have and that. Okay, so I'm going to introduce our next colleague, Peter Vamos. He's a scholar from hungry and has written extensively on, unfortunately for me, it seems like most of his work has been published in Hungarian. And one of the other narrative threads running through the R workshop. And also, when you read, and I hope you all do read this, this book. What's him bit one of the things that's embedded in the book, especially if you read the footnotes, is how much work each of these people has created. That is not available to people who don't read Hungarian or Polish, or Mongolian or Romanian. I don't quite know what to do about that because, you know, nobody gets credit for translating work. But I think it's extremely important. And, you know, I was really thrilled to have her join the workshop because he has published extensively. And his contribution in this book is, it gives us just a little taste of some of the deep work he's done on phonology. So without further ado, I'll turn it over to Peter. Thank you very much, Michael. It's really my honor to be able to contribute to this volume. Well, I am a historian of modern China. And my story begins where my personal story begins, where my paper and more or less, in the late eighties, when I started my Chinese studies at, which was the only Chinese department in Hungary at a university In 1987. Now, Michael, you asked us to comment on the present as well. We have three Chinese departments in Hungary. One of those is at the university where I have been teaching for 25 years. It's called curly University in Budapest. And I'm also a senior research fellow at the Research Center for the Humanities in Budapest, where I work at the Institute of history. My focus of research is the history of China. So i'm, I'm trained as a historian as well. And some of the topics that I have been working on are related to my paper here. So It's Sino-Soviet block relations, sign of Hungarian relations during the post-war period. But one of my fields is the history of Christianity in China. So if we speak about the paper that I have written and contribute to this volume, it, It's about coordinated research on modern China in the Soviet Bloc during the second half of the Cold War period. The story starts more or less with the Sino-Soviet split. And the first subsection of my paper introduces the situation in Hungary, the institutional framework of Chinese studies. In Hungary. During the sixties and seventies. We had very few people who could speak Chinese. And we're working on issues related to China in one way or another. A few of them were working on classical Chinese language culture history. But there were those who went to study to the PRC as the birth of the students in the 19 fifties and early sixties. And when they came back to Hungary, to Budapest, they became the professors at the Chinese department. So some of my professors, they had firsthand experience from the PRC. They were the ones who could speak Chinese fluently. And they worked as interpreters for the government as well. At some point, they were serving as diplomats in Beijing. So they had a very rich experience similar to Professor buyer. So, but we had only a handful of these people, like less than 30. And They were the ones who had to cover China for the academic world as well as for the greater public, so for the, for the public opinion as well. So they were involved in this process initiated by the Soviet Party Central Committee, especially IT department for the relations with the fraternal parties of socialist countries. And now all these cooperation was coordinated mainly by the Institute of the Far East at the Soviet Academy of Sciences. So and my, my paper introduces in a chronological order this process of institutionalization and the details of the meetings and the discussions which served as the platform for policy coordination for the Soviet bloc. The first period is the late sixties and early seventies, when the institutional framework was established within the block. The second phase is the period between Mao's death and the announcement of the reform and opening up the period or policy in China which witnessed increasing soviet pressure. But on the other hand, slow polarization from the Allies side. And the last part that deals with the 1980s when this coordinated research slowly loses significance. So basically this is the skeleton of my paper. And I can go into details in the Q&A session. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Actually, I must tell you that after we had our call for papers out, predator wrote to me asking whether whether he could join. I think it was already after we have completed the list of participants, but we got an e-mail from him and it was amazing because we found out about because detailed, meticulous search on inter keep, especially in Hungarian complex but also more, more, more, more broadly. So, So Michael and I were absolutely thrilled that paper also was on board in this project. So without further delay, I have a pleasure to invite Noosgoi Altantsetseg to tell a few words about her paper Alta is the professor in the School of International Relations and Public Administration of the National University of Mongolia. And she graduates from the faculty of Oriental Studies at the Saint Petersburg State University. Alcohol, the floor is yours. Thank you. Antonina. Do you hear me? Yes, we hear you. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I am sign all the juice. I graduated there from the Saint Petersburg State University with a degree of Oriental Studies and Chinese history. From them my students time, I constant case study China because for Mongolia is very important neighbor. China. For China, Mongolia also is important neighbor because our Mongolian and Chinese and land borders. So longer for ten hours, longer of Mongolia, Awesome, longer borders. So I studied China is very important for Mongolia. It was a long time. My paper focusing on the Chinese studies during the cold bar. So my paper, pen and paper, they thought the Mongolian Chinese studies doing the Bible called the war idiom. Why double called for? Because everybody knows Cold War. It was bleak. I said, Well, most between socialist and capitalist system. I mean between Soviet Union and the USA. It, that time it's. Called the war. And also that time target and Chinese delicious was in there called the period. So my Arctic of type of Mongolia in that bubble called won't, because Bigtable is, if we can say they're a little smaller, a double your code there between the Soviet Union and China because Mongolia, everybody knows located between Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China. So at this period, this very interesting period for development, Mongolian Chinese studies spirit. My article. Focus just on their Mongolian Chinese despite the study, this article divided by 4 2 status. Because Mongolia, second socialist countries of the Soviet Union, Mongolia was in 1924, translated into a socialist country, the second of the Soviet union. And then in tennis tablets in 1949, China become a socialist country. From 1949. From this time, Mongolia and China established diplomatic relations between two socialist countries. But from this time until 19 nineties, Mongolia Chinese delicious was divided into two stage I can skip because no first stage. This covers the period from the 1949 man Meet 1960s until time for the Cultural Revolution in China. These posts time was the relations between Mongolia and China was very friendly relations. At that was the focus upon a principle such that the tuple mu to help, middle assistance. So in that time, first Mongolian students, I may, I may assign all they just they were able to study in China chinese language. Janice Carter, I'm Janice yesterday. So on, of course, are in the other fields like technology and other fields. But of this period, more than 10 Mongolian schoolers ban. They woke up in the sinology field that I mean in the China Studies. At that time, they first period day we're focusing on the China status data books and showing to the people how socialism is built in China, how the achievement in China. Also many books nowhere else and the letters are translated from Chinese to Mongolia and also speech even mount that bone density european. This kind of tenuously, this translated into Mongolian. Chinese history books also translated into Mongolian, not thundering go into Mongolian. Also in China, was also translated Mongolian historical books and speaks of a Mongolian lead the song, it was same mutual respect situation in them. If the mode that you first have to say more than 10 years, this kind of research we're doing that them back. But the beginning of 19 sixties, Mongolian Chinese delicious was worst because it depend of the Soviet Union and Chinese the deletions. They start to see a conflict between the Soviet Union and China. This conflict, because Soviet Union and China, of course inclusive for Mongolian political situation. And that time event complex between Soviet Union and China starts Mongolian. Mongolian keeps the side in the Soviet Union site. They can see. And that time has cost Mongolia hasn't been able to send scholars to prepare in China that Pam Mongolia in National University of Mongolia Stat open Chinese language department. This department also the teachers who started in China. They were Foundation, I think stat teach me Japanese language and the guy he's driven. So our second This is a huge contribution, the cool, lonely in chain that they put the foundation for their future development for Chinese studies in Mongolia. And after they're called the period between China and Mongolia, he was not able to send students to China for their study. China and language and thought decile. So that Pam of the 990s have them, ladies 70 set in Mongolia at home and be prepared at the cutaneous studies students. Some students were sent to say that Soviet Union, for example, I was one of them and also studied in St. Petersburg University Oriental Studies. This is focusing on Chinese history and on the Oriental Studies. Not been the time that a country like India, Europe depends on. So the second time, also Mongolian, I'm tennis that this was developed but I can see it was they were put in there in that the label of study that Pam, Mongolia also find two people label box and on China and Mongolia establish it, I think was in 1968. This issue applique Study Center at the academic science. Eat. This put foundation for epidemic level study China. So from beta, the spam business of Asia and applicant center was rename it at they will put in for East, East Asia than Institute of International Studies and so on and so on. So still, this China studies. They people now working at the Academy of Science in there very important institute prosthetic China also the how to say Chinese studies still continuing in our country. So of course, between Mongolia and China, what this quote by mean between vanco because the Mongolia, Mongolia in China, Mongolia is both the national minority region of China. Inner Mongolia is very long border severe. In Shenzhen when we got there, have also Mongolia support them, also Tibet, this very important nationally among industry reaching from Mongolia because Mongolian and Tibetan we had reached 70 lesion. We are not ghosts and lumps, so we have cultural and their religion that editions we tip it. So in the court, the period for Mongolian, Chinese, Mongolian, mongolian scholars paid more attention for their nation on my mind, on the damp and the Cultural Revolution period, this was assimilation policy through this panda from national minority. It was one of their main topic for Mongolian Chinese studies sector. And also in that there was a competition between their historical issues because Mongolia and China also the Cold War period. Different opinion about yesterday. Everybody knows this. You, I'm Dennis, during the Yuan Dynasty, Mongolian was terminated in China building the Kingdom as the China and Mongolia both were under that my room. So our historical connection, a historical issues is very important to good academic standing, academic research, that quarter period also was a bit hard to say. Mongolian Studies more paid more attention for their historical issues between common issues from miles to save Chinese used against their study when Gordon hysteria among others listed there, There's also studied Mongo live in January does this. But this period, it's all very different attitudes, different opinion about Mongolian history. So, so I can see many men as a poet stages. So from there man, myth of 1985 when the Soviet Union starts perestroika and the opening perestroika and the People's Republic of China also judge foreign policy, start Soviets and the Chinese. Dishes become more warm, bath them are Mongolian Chinese studies also pay more attention to the Chinese foreign policy. For the basic idea is share Asia and Pacific concern. We study time when more deeply, also Chinese economic reform and Chinese economic development. Now this also Chinese foreign policy is this share of this, the share and the how to say Silk Road project. All of these things now are very thick tip of Mongolia. Awesome Mongolian soldiers More attend. For Chinese studies. Even in this quarter period, the tennis that this was limited because their political competition when Mongolia also maintain their ideological influence from the Soviet, Soviet Communism. And now it this way it now open and now now idealistic attitudes could give them, They 10000 studies. So it's, I want to say, thank you very much the cause. I think this Mongolian Chinese started Mongolian sinology in the English language. It may be first my article in English because Mongolia, we published some articles in Russian before, some articles I publish it in China, but it was also given lectures in chairing that in India and Japan and other East Asian countries about them ongoing Chinese, Mongolian, Chinese status, Mongolian sinology. But nowadays, I am very happy in my attic, publish it in English. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Altantsetseg. It was a great pleasure for me to have Professor Altantsetseg on the panel because I am a historian of the Mongol conquest of China. And I'm here to tell you that if there's one really great example of a colonial subject liberating itself from its colonial master. It has to be the story of Mongolia is liberation from the King and from Chinese ongoing attempts to master Mongolia. So now I'm going to turn to our next scholar who contributed to the volume Andreea Brînză, brings us the story front of, of sinology. In Romania, which is also if, if, if nothing else, it's even less known than any of the other top in the, in the West. So Andreea, Please. Thank you so much, Michael. It's a great pleasure to be here with you and to talk about Romanian sinology during the Cold War because even you mean, yeah, these topic wasn't too. So approach, approach. And I will jump to the main fat or findings of my research and my article. So I will start by saying that for me, I think regime, not what, I wasn't just influenced by the Cold War, but it actually developed during the Cold War. So we have a mean, yeah, this sinology that didn't appear beard or organic. On the contrary, it was created from top down by an exchange program, PhD student program that started in the 50s. And back then, the first generation of sinologists were formed. And as the apparent, this is, I can say that the first-generation wife was composed by 55 students out of 2000, they went to China. They started for, I think five years and they came back to media and all became renowned. Knowledge is one of them and became an ambassador to China. And another one created the section of Chinese language and literature at the universe of biochar as though the first branch of Chinese studies. Yes. And with these stacked chart is that it appeared a new wave of sinologist. Those sinologists forming in Romania. Yeah. I can say more about these these Romanian section and how the synodic period, but I have limited time so we can buy more in the book or in the book in my chapter. But again, I wanted to add is that as a characteristic, as a characteristic of Romanian sinology, as knowledge during the cold, where I can say that, that sinologist didn't have the freedom to approach of the topics that they wanted as though politics, international relations, geo-politics, economics. So because of that, their main area of focus was on language, studied, on culture, on philosophy, and even of history, but not so much on modern history, but on ancient history, more like ancient history, let's say. And these so bad then we can find it even today. Even after the fall of communism. Because although the Chinese studies, in Romania evolved, they evolved and you can see how evolution of them. We still don't have classes that approaches topics like geopolitics, economics, or international relations. So to conclude, I want to say that knowledge in the Romanian sinology has quite a short history. And it is very much connected to the China-Romania relations. And but today we can see an improvement and the interests for China, the expanding. So because they know that they have limited time. This is my presentation. I am looking for for the questions and thank you. Thank you so much, Andrea. It's great that we have for a chapter on Romania. And it's because for me as a little bit specific case and the complex of our Cold War Eastern European countries, especially because of the figure of Ceaușescu and how key kept developing good relations with China. Whereas other countries, other satellite countries had to follow the centroid from Moscow and could not develop for such friendly relations with Beijing. So now it is my great pleasure to introduce Diana Lin, who is a professor of history at Indiana University Northwest, who is originally from Beijing. And Diana carried out some research on a Czecho-Slovakian researcher. Diana, the floor is yours. Thank you, Antonina. So my interest in Charles law pre-check began with a fascination with projects scholarship, and I mean, with him as a person, I was fascinated with how he was able to navigate between the communist world and the capitalist world. In 1967, he was in the United States or a semester actually, he was a Harvard. It was the year of, it was in China. It was during the Cultural Revolution where when all communication between China and the United States was cut. But as a check sinologist who check was able to accept an invitation to lecture at Harvard and teach two courses are modern Chinese literature there in the fall semester, It seemed at the time that some kind of bridge could be built between humanism, communism, and other bourgeois values, as exemplified by Harvard. And push Act was making a contribution to sinology. Acknowledged by both the West and at Western and Eastern Europe and in North America in the field of modern Chinese literature. Although that kind of a connection was a precarious one. And it was quickly overturned after the Prague Spring when the pro dupe check and pro reform project was, who was for socialism with a human face, was expelled from the Czech Communist Party. However, before this happened, it was remarkable that some common communication and common understanding could be achieved through Eastern European communist and Western sinology. Western sinology through projects efforts. For instance, legal even reminisced. That project was the first distinguished scholar invited by Harvard to lecture on modern Chinese literature at the time. Because it was the field which was nonexistent in most American universities. Legally attributed is PhD dissertation, which was also revise for publication as the Romantic generation of modern Chinese writers. Published in 1973. He attributed it to projects pioneering research on the subject at hand in modern Chinese literature that led him to his thesis. Another professor at UCLA, a theater hitters, who is professor emeritus at University of California, California, Los Angeles, also reminisced that it was the worker proof check that provided a new and creative framework of modern Chinese literature and gave him enough courage to devote himself to that field. Which in America of the 1970s, it was as though it was still a rather insecure field of study. So an end in 1963, 1962 and 1963 project and the CT Shah had engaged in a debate about how to assess modern Chinese literature in Tombow, which is Dutch journal published by Brill. So one envies the communication and connection pre-check was able to make between the East and the West. And how he used his unique synthesis between Marxists, didacticism and croc school structuralism to build a rich understanding of modern Chinese literature. While Marxism median, prioritize social transformation as the most important goal of a writer. Humanism and individualism, which are products of western modernization, made him appreciate artistic expressions and creative imagination in a writing and Prague School, scratch structuralism synthesized with Marxism, enabled him to see artistic expressions as part of a system and see literary texts as not existing by themselves, but our heart, our larger context, which they illuminate. And so by identifying the lyrical as a valuable characteristic of Chinese creative writing, which applied mostly the poetry but also to some novels or check what to use. This is structural framework and made an original contribution the modern Chinese literature. But combined acts of creativity that wonderfully lengths a subjective with the outside reality. The type of linkage that project created between the East and the West would still be deeply appreciate it today as we seem to get into a new round of war. And communication becomes strained when China and the West are finding it increasingly difficult to find common ground or a common discourse to describe the same thing. We need sinologists like who will build bridges and create new insights through a rich synthesis of traditions from different cultural and ideological backgrounds. Thank you. Thank you, Diana. Your work is really great and it's, it's a pleasure to have a colleague who is just up the road from where I am in Bloomington, colleague in the Indiana University System, doing such important work. I'm going to turn the floor over to my colleague Antonina to tell us briefly about her paper. I'll say one thing about the paper that is in the book. It's kind of a, it's a pity that we weren't allowed to have the visual images that Antonina included in her workshop paper because she had, she does a lot on visual analysis of portraits of Mao and propaganda posters as part of her work. And I'm hoping that she'll be able to publish that in a separate venue at some point. So Antonina, the floor is yours. Thank you, Michael. Yes, indeed, I analyzed how Mao Zedong was portrayed in Polish publication from 1949 until 1976, so until Mao's death. And so basically when they say portray, I mean, those of literally how, what kind of pictures, photographs of Mao Zedong were republished and polish publications. But I also did some discourse analysis to find out how Mao Zedong was described in Polish publications and basically law both in 960 Sino-Soviet split. So before the period Mao Zedong was glorified. I'm interestingly, even the fact that he engaged peasantry instead of a prokaryote as the main basis of the communist revolution. Even this thing was kind of justified and dwells explained that he just had to adjust Marxist Leninism to Chinese conditions. Whereas after 1960 and especially during the period of cultural revolution back in Poland, the very same way he adjusted boxes, moneylenders to Chinese condition was fiercely criticized. Job as the distortion all for Marxism-Leninism. So basically in my paper, I show how the Soviet context and the evolution of Sino-Soviet relations impacted on the way Mao Zedong wants to publish publications. Hope that period. However, I must stress that the main thing I'm really happy about and I feel really honored for, is the fact that I had the pleasure to be co-editor of the book. So I think this is enough what I should say about my own paper, because it's just a very, very small contribution. So now I have a pleasure to introduce my colleague from my university who took a look at cinematography of China. How Chinese movies where I received in the Cold War period, and how they were researched on professional yeah. Piotr, the floor is yours. Yes. First of all, I want to thank you Antonina and Michael for invitation me to such great project. And I'm a specialist on the field of film studies. And generally I'm interested in Asian cinema. But of course, the reception of this cinema is, is, is very interesting. And especially when we talk about China's cinema. And in my text, I described situation that distribution of China's films. China cinema was some kind of a mirror of political, social relationship between Poland or Soviet Bloc generally and China. And, and my text was generally divided into part. In first part, I described the distribution factor, you know, which is very interesting because between 1940 to 451966, this in Poland, we've got almost 50 timess films which were made in mainland China, of course. And generally those movies were, were, were propaganda films. And in the time of, of, of splits political relationship between Soviets and Soviets, soviet block and China. There was a little gap in this, in this kind of activity and in IT's Communist, Communist government. And Important. We got lots of movies that China's movies especially will shout, especially martial arts movies which, which were made in Hong Kong. And it was very, very interesting situation because it is some kind of of main, main, main focus on the stack. So that's that communist politics used. Hong Kong movies, which are movies which are Mm-hm. Which were deeply rooted in this Chinese spiritually. For, for reshape, reshape, reshape social, social environment in Poland because, because they wanted to make some kind of alternative, our alternative spiritual order or spiritual factor. Which can, which, which could destroy, or maybe, maybe, maybe more interesting than, for example, the Christian Spirituality. And that's why the popularity of Hong Kong cinema in ITs, in Poland. But it is very interesting that, that, that's in communist country like, for like Poland. That the cinema of Hong Kong now did the cinema which in my opinion, which was fundamentally rooted in the, in the classical, classical culture, classical Chinese culture were screened. And that's why, that's why this kind of, this kind of cinema, Chinese cinema, in fact, we're, we're representation of Chinese culture were screened in our country. But of course in, in, in my text, I described, I described film studies which interested in China's Sinaloa. In fact, in fact, in the 80s, in late eighties and nineties, we can, we can build in film studies which are interested in dinos 15 among Chinese culture in China cinematic culture. And I think that this situation will be much more, much more interesting now because we, we've got open and access for, for China's see them not only Chinese in their mouth from Mainland but of course Chinese Nana from Hong Kong and from other apart part of the world when Chinese activity to Chinese student activity, where or our mate. Thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah. So last but not least, now let's turn to the Lord to meet her. But before that, I would like to just mention that we also need to taper by Ádám Róma, who unfortunately could not join us today because of some of our other work commitments. However, his papers equally interesting because he had the chance to examine unpublished auto- biography of Barna Tálas, probably the most famous Hungarian expert on China. So I do hope that at some other, okay, we will also have a chance to invite to add them in to learn more about his paper as well. So as I said, last but not least, Michał, floor is yours. Hi everyone. I cannot turn on the video because it tells me that that means data should do it, so. Uh-huh. Okay. Our good hi, everyone. So technical with overcame overcome technical issues. So hi everyone. My name is me has been an associate professor of political science at the beginning in university. And I'm delighted to be here half an hour was writing about and will partially about polished sinology and partially about other aspects. So my article is entitled China's handling the, sorry, the China, China people are impulse October, Poland and impact on Polish sinology. And it tells a story which is basically three-part story. One is about the events of 1956. The other one is the general atmosphere in Poland. Senior file. Now atmosphere and the last parties about the Polish sinology. It's based on documentary, such beautiful arises and individual in-depth interviews which either I or other researchers with our Polish sinologist. So, well, why I wrote this article? Because when I was super interesting for me, why China became, became an interesting topic or people in 1950s, Poland, why some people became interested in China. Why they decided to study sinology and made her lifelong commitment. And all these aspects that surrounds such, such things. So what was the reaction of the families and what was basically the intellectual climate? So the core of my article. But before that I need to introduce and I do it in the, in the article. So I, I write about and the events of 1956 when China helped to stop the Soviets than the Soviet tanks from, from rolling into war. So basically, this is a well-known event in Poland. It's called the October or internationalism. Sometimes it's called the Polish October. And, and basically the, the fact that it's undisputed, what is this disputed? Is that the scale of this help, and I deal with that in this article. But what is more important is that this just gives a good protects to talk about the atmosphere. This is what I call China, China fever in Poland, because we had a generation, the first effectively the personalization of Polish sinologies. Although there were some people who, who started data sinologist carrier earlier on. But as a generation, as a group of people, this was the first one. And, and that was, that was fascinating. Why? Why they started going to China? They became interested in China and my hypothesis was that, Was it a herd of hidden anti soviet is important. This was, this hypothesis was developed during the discussion, during our conference in Berlin in late 2020. So, so, so I tried and I tackled this hypothesis that, well, the hypothesis was the following, that basically there was a sort of hidden anti, anti Soviet. Isn't that because they didn't like Soviet Union. They, they they switched into to China. But unfortunately or fortunately, I, well, the evidence I found that the sources I found, they didn't confirm this hypothesis. That what they found was that people became interested in China because of China itself. It sounds quite simple, but the fact is that and this is the cultural aspect of, of my article, is the fact that China was the first other for post-war poles. So the first, I would even use the currently politically incorrect word exotic. But because Poland ham, became so unitary, including ethnic unity enforced unfortunately after half an hour or two, then China became the first exotic other four for the balls. So when, when I read the memoirs, when I talk to people who remember these times, they were saying that basically Poland was so gray now, so, so boring where he has China was fascinating, exotic. It goes also Prospero's that may be some strengths. Somehow. Then sounds strangely, But, but I was before the Great Leap Forward. So basically, the economy have shortages. This is of course a Hungarian term, but it can be applied to other Eastern European countries as well. So Ebola, we had this economy of shortages various. In China it was not that bad in the 50s. And salt. So this is, this is one thing that against the background of gray, hopeless Poland, China was an adventure. And there are some great stories like GitHub logic story, who was one of the first students who went to China. He married a Chinese girl. That was also a, a, a story because Zhou Enlai had to consent to give his consent to this, to this marriage. So, so and gradually goes from a tiny village in the countryside all and so the story about him first going to China and then coming back with the Chinese wife is absolutely hilarious. So, and so and I have some other stories like that in the, in the article. These, this part was, what's the best one, I would say when writing, when two people who are talking. And it mostly why they chose China was one thing was because they were faster than I did. But that was not the not, not the only reason. Sometimes it was simply a blind chance that out of the sudden a deed appeared, a possibility appeared. And the youth that had so some kind of bake interested in studying something far distant exotic Jin or something Easter. Combination of these factors, there is a story of, of Borofsky, one of the Polish sinologists, who when he was a child or a teenager, she was reading newspaper to his grand grandfather who was not able to talk to read any longer. And because of that, he knew about the political situation in the world. So when there was a delegation from the, from the central government in, in his school. And delegation was of course, looking for some bright students. He was the one. They chose him because he's knowledge exceeded the knowledge of other students greatly. So these kind of stories are very, very vivid. And, and, and they, they will paint the picture of a, of a generation for whom start studying in China/ sinology was an adventure and became a life lived bounce profession. But then of course, politics move, moved in and the general good atmosphere in Singapore, these relations deteriorated due to Sino-Soviet split. Now although Polish communists, they tried to minimize the damaged, but unfortunately that was beyond data will or control. And ultimately the, the, the, the atmosphere waned and, and little of it remains. So it's at, but it's fascinating anyway that, that it, it lasted. As for the third part, the last part about the sinology in Poland and talking and writing more about the ways of them of avoiding being, being controversial. So mostly that meant hiding from contemporary issues. And we already, during this, this webinar really already talked about that in Germany. So, so basically that was a very similar story that Han China or better still even earlier. Now it was a good topic. whereas Kuomintang or let alone Chinese People's Republic was not as one of the one of sinologist whom I interviewed told me that anything that was after the May Fourth Movement was off limits in formalin. So, but they survived thanks to this, to this attitudes they were, they survive because the politicians didn't care about them and they could, they could study, they could to conduct studies about, about China. So these three parts are, are in my article 1956 than the atmosphere. Well, a collective image of a, of a generation. And finally, and finally, this, this part about sinology. So, so that's it. Thank you so much for, for inviting me to this project. I'm delighted to know that all. I was delighted that I was able to be in Berlin back then. I'm super happy that that I was in the volume and that I am that was not. Thank you so much. Thank you. So should we open it up now to discussion? I know there are some observers. If you have any questions or if you want to debate something or ask about extensions of any of the work, please feel free to do so. I'll just make a couple of comments. One of the things that really strikes me after having participated in the workshop and also in the editing and collecting and editing of these, of the papers that went into the book. One of the things that strikes me is the, in some senses, the randomness of the careers of the early sinologist. Certainly this is true in the story of Barna Tálas. the eminent Hungarian sinologist that Adam Róma's paper talks about. I was really struck by the fact that this scholar began his career because he was essentially assigned to go to China and I'm paid or Vamos can probably talk more about, about tawa says career if that's, if that's something we want to devote to. But I guess I'm struck by the fact that a lot of these careers were completely random or possibly due to political influences, our particular political issues that were prevalent in their time period. And then I, I wonder about what's the state of China Studies today. So for people like myself who have been focusing on Chinese minority issues, I have lots of thoughts about where that might be going in the present. And I'm trying to link up some of that with some of the issues that were discussed in these papers, but I'll I'll let I'll turn the floor over to other people at this point. My thought people might, perhaps before we discuss the state of personality today, we have a question in the chat box from Mr. Sean King. So if you don't mind, I will read it out because it's a question to Dr. Weigelin-Schwiedrzik. And here it goes, East German. Better way. I hope that the contributors can, can see that the Q&A section on bone on the bottom of the screen, alright, East German, North Korean relations became strained in the 19 seventies and eighties because among other thing is Pyongyang nationalist vacation drive toward the south contrasted greatly with each purlins Hanukkah era. I've got a policy of no German unification. Do know if similar GDR PRC tensions existed and that such tensions existed. How might those tensions have impacted center CINAHL logical studies in the former GDR. So Suzanne, would you answer this question? Thank you very much. This is really a very interesting question and I think I cannot give a very convincing answer. But as far as I know, there has always been a certain tension between the Eastern part of Germany and the People's Republic of China related to the unification issue. At the beginning when the GDR was still going for unification. Of course, they could sort of always say, you know, when they hour both countries will be reunited and no problem. But then with the GDR going more and more into a direction of the so-called two-state theory. Actually, the PRC side was not very happy because as you might know, after certain period of time, both West Germany and East Germany accepted to be two different states as members of the United Nations. Which was a philosophy that both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China did not accept for their own situation. And so it was a problem. But I think at that time, under the leadership of Zhou Enlai, diplomacy was comparatively soft handed in China. For that reason they didn't make this a very prominent issue. When finally, 1980's the TDR and the People's Republic of China. We approached each other and we had a certain time during the 19 eighties when both students from Western Germany and Eastern Germany were actually present at Chinese universities and Shanghai and Beijing and Shanghai and so on, so forth. So I think it is what, it was very much due to the kind of diplomacy on the Chinese side that made it possible for the GDR to sort of circumvent this problem and have better relationships to China when it saw that this was something it needed to have. And especially because of economic reasons. I make this sound or for clarification for your very interesting answers. So let me go back to what Michael was talking about. So the state of contemporary phenology or China studies. Because in our book we're also explaining what kind of definition we are accepting because there is no single definition of sinology and China studies sometimes they are treated synonymously, sometimes they mean a little bit different branches of research or studies from China. So anyway, we will trying to accept as wide definition as possible without excluding anyone. As we know that some expert focus express both is some literature and language of us focus on international relations and political issues. So if I can jump in and ask again the question given by Michael, what is the state of sinology today or the state of China Studies and where are we going from here? Perhaps I should give the floor to Professor Bayer again, who has the richest experience and maybe, maybe we can learn some lessons from The history of sinology and China studies, professor are you with us. Yes, I am. I am. I've seen the question concerning the difficulties to learn. Chinese and tolerance phenology in general. Points from damaged the obstacles which I signaled in my article. I mean, some financial limits and constraints. Lack of Freedom and expressing one's called Mind and so on. I think the worst thing ever, it was the lack of teaching materials. I don't remember whether I mentioned in my article, I know that the first time I had to do with the Chinese tapes and linguistic laboratory was almost at the very end of my studies. That was the fifth year of my studies. Because before that we had no access to any teaching, all day Material. No tapes, no records, nothing. That it was almost an app for it, you know, because during my fourth year of study, the program had only one hour of contemporary Chinese. There was only one lesson per week. So this is nothing. You can, you can check the admittance list, but not learn a language. What language should be. So I think that was the limits. Another limit was that there was only one Chinese language section, had the Oriental Institute in Warsaw. Nothing else. Now almost every important university in Poland has got the Chinese, say, chair, Institute section or whatever. So you can learn, you can learn sinology, or at least you can learn Chinese without the background, time in history, political economy, and so on. You have some specialized. Is the egg along in university, which I think is the best. As far as contemporary China is concerned, it gives us some insight into the past. About the proportions are much better than with strictly. See knowledge is phenological departments to other universities because they focus on the past, on Ancient China, and on tradition, on history and so on. They don't give as much knowledge as an hour about contemporary China. So if we sum it up and take into the aeration that the production as far as the number of gray to eat is concerned, was something like a few people every two years because they had admission. Enrollment was carried out once every two years, intermittently, Japanese, Chinese, Japanese, Chinese. So that was the routine procedure. In the sixties, in the seventies, then the frequency of enrollment was doubled. So it meant that every year there were new students are Chinese words your university. And in the second half of the eighties, some while not sinologist about Chinese language courses started at some other universities outside Warsaw. So that was a big progress. But at the time when I studied and that was 69, 72 core, nothing like that. So the number of gray Dewey's was very limited. The access to teaching and learning materials was again, very limited, or we may say restricted because, for example, and a nice books or records sort of contact was prohibited. I remember from my experience when I started learning Korean and of course I used to visit North Korea very frequently is the Polish Press Agency responded in Beijing, but to South Korea did not exist on our political map. I made a trip illegally in December 18 for this, I wanted to see South Korea. And then I had to use all possible tricks. Just to convince you, note the chief editor of my press agency, that that was a tourist trip or something like that. So I defended myself effective. But it was close to a disaster because they could recall me, you know, from, from my post in Beijing just in retaliation for my, let's called misbehavior, ideological and political misbehavior. I never okay. About that. Never from and not to observe some abstract, abstractive rules or completely illogical augmentation, nothing like that. So if we compare the past with the present time, so of course now it's, I mean, they are people may really learn. China, may learn about China. I may learn Chinese and they may, let's say, plan something for the future. While in our case, it was hardly possible. Did you hear me? Yes. Oh, yeah. Okay. Michael, you raised your hand? So yeah, I would like to, I would like to extend professor Bayer's comments about the limited access to materials and in his period of time. And I wonder if we're not entering a similar situation now. Not because there's a dearth of Chinese languaged teaching materials or other materials that have been made available by China. In other states. My concern is rather with the, what I've experienced as a, a, an incredible restriction or limiting of access to archives in China for foreign scholars. And perhaps this is due to, perhaps this is limited to certain fields. So for example, I've been researching for a number of years ethnic minority issues in, in the PRC. And it is, I'm going to say it's impossible now for me to go to any archive in China and be able to research that topic at this point in time. I don't know if others have that same experience. But what I am concerned about is in some ways, a return to the kind of situation that Professor buyer talks about. I'd be interested to hear how, what other people here think about this or people in the, in the audience as well. Thank you all. Might be, maybe just to start with, I may quote, says some some of my experience. Because when I use Post-its in China for the second time and that was between 92 doubles, three. I used to travel around China a lot without asking any permissions for it. The any approvals and anything like that? No, Not until it was only ones over six years. That to me, my wife and my younger is Tania know because we learn together in a Christian Beijing than in Shanghai where I was Consul General. We used to travel by car. I also driver. So we all also visited Tibet and speaking areas in Shanghai and even entertain part of Tibet. And say that word no, no restriction to as we were stopped by the Chinese police only once. And that was our last trip in October to W3, just two or three weeks before leaving China. At that time, access to libraries and archives was possible. While not everywhere and not to in each and every situation. But in most cases, it was possible, it was even possible to copy some materials to Xerox to that. Many books were available. For example, as far as the history of Sino- Tibetan relations is concerned because that was the focus of my academic interest. Practically speaking in the countryside. February had been printed in the People's Republic of China and is still survived until that time was available. I, I bought, you know, a number of old books from the fifties, sixties, from the seventies. And so an old bookstore is the only thing you know, shop attendance had to do was do the two dusted them because they were in such a state that you hardly could read the title out. Or they serve as a support to, you know, for for a cabinet and onto wooden cabinet two, which was almost splitting apart. But they were still available. You could buy it, you know, for let's say five yuan or six yuan, which was an enormous amount of money for local people at the time. Now, of course, situation is much, much better. I, but I think this is the result of China's self imposed isolation. Because I'm a friendly, China is going that way right now. Particularly before the 20th Party Congress do to be held in November. This year. It's a, it's a sort of a very conscious action I think, taken by the Chinese leadership. Because China has been using the COVID pandemic as a pretext, as a very convenient critics and limited, limiting contact with the outside world. For me, it's evident, I don't know whether other people agree with it. But when exchanging views, you know, with many scholars and China watchers and political analyst. I came across the point of view quite, quite often that this is how I see it. Thank you very much, Professor. I have a two other contributors raising their hands. So I will allow myself to Susanne and then to Peter. Thank you very much. I think I'm Michael in my field which is contemporary Chinese history and politics, the situation is very much the same as you described. So while up until nine to 2012, we were quite happy to go to China, exchanged views with our colleagues, go into archives, both archives in big cities as well as in the countryside. This is not possible anymore and it's not only not possible for us foreigners, but it's also not possible for our colleagues in China. Many of those departments that were focused on contemporary Chinese history were a closed people have now gone to go back into King and Min history rather than doing post 49 Chinese history. The archives they, they collected actually also being closed are not allowed to put them online anymore and things like this. So the situation is totally different from the times before 2012. And I think it's not getting better but worse. On the other hand, I must say that at least in the German-speaking world, we're also wondering how people who specialize on contemporary China will be viewed within the next month to come. Because if we compare the situation, our situation with a situation of our colleagues who specialize on Russia. We see that there are now being extremely criticized for trying to explain why Russia is the way it is. And some of what we do as sinologists working on contemporary issues is that we tried to explain why China is the way it is. And this is understood as being too much in favor of Russia. And these people are asked to do self-criticism. Not only people in academia, but also journalists, people who are in businesses, people who are in leading position or who were in leading positions in the past and had good relations with Russia. And I think that many of the young people who are now writing the PhDs on contemporary China wondering whether they chose the right topic because they feel that they're going to be, to be met by enormous problems for the, for the RIA if they deal with issue of contemporary issues related to China. So the field is actually under high pressure for both sides from, from, from China as well as from our home countries. And we're only waiting for our universities to give us instructions for how to deal with the situation. And unfortunately, many universities in the films became world immediately broke up their relationships with universities in Russia. And we feel, you know, that if things go into the direction that A jury just said, I think that our universities will ask us to shy away from politics again. Maybe go into ancient China's, into the study of ancient China rather than doing contemporary China issues. Despite the fact that I repeat, I think that our decision-makers, our public, the people in our countries need to be informed what's going on in the world, including China and including version, pater that flower is now yours. Peter is gone. Where is Peter? Peter we saw your hand. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes. Okay. So I muted myself. So just a short comment on Michael's observation. This is a book that came out recently. It's a sign of Hungarian relations, 409, 289. So this is the calligraphy of Sanger, who are probably the most prominent Cold War historian in present-day China. This book contains a 180 hungarian documents and not a single Chinese one. And the simple reason is that I did not have access to those Chinese materials. When I first was able to do research in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs archives in Beijing. That was in 2005, I think a year after. The collection was made accessible for for, for, for, for both scholars in general. The promise was that they would declassify documents on a regular basis. So the first stage was 950, 255. The second stage came in 2006, when I was fortunate enough to be the first foreigner to access the material after it's declassification. And I collected a significant number of Chinese documents on Hungary and the Hungarian 56 revolution. I actually, I translated them and publish them in Hungarian. So they are available now in Hungarian. Selection is available on the post-war history quad we're International History Project website as well in English. But after that, this process first slowed down. And as Michael and Suzanne just mentioned, after 2012, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs archives practically closed down. So it's not possible to get any significant document from from them. So this is just a brief comment. And I thank you very much. Do we have any other comments from our contributors on the state of the current state of phonology and its future prospects and challenges our piece. Okay, thank you. I want to say is what does sinology we talked about that there are additional sinology, this learn Chinese language, literature, history and religion, so on. But now China is rising country. Though young population and students, they more interested Nowadays today's Chinese economy and the Chinese foreign policy. This kind of a field of research and listed the young generation in my time. I mean, the during the Cold War time. In the typical work and plan, the folks that are on the exact topic. For example, national minority policy chain lead to the debate in Mongolia zones on now this, this Mason and minority issues. I think it's in Mongolia. How to say it? The more week I have, the more attention paid today's Chinese economy and the auto policy and the Mongolian Chinese relations, so on. Then they also in East Asia policy. So I want to suggest this may smell minority issues still in China. Now, I have problems that Tibet and Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia, even there. I mean, two years ago, maybe in, in Mongolia at this Xi Jinping policy where guests teaching Mongolian language in secondary school and it is very difficult to find a job if you don't know Chinese language, so on, so on. So, uh, how to be in their future. Because, you know, hello, Mason and minorities, so many minority in the tiniest minority. Him about the cards, it's not minority. So my goodness, and Tibetan, and this isn't an oak or their own tradition, own language, our own culture and history in today's there also have, of course, they included then Chinese economic policy in the throat, but they also have some problems how to be in the future. What simul that you're not on the language, history and tradition. This, I mean this traditional sinology. Now this, We have to, Today's Chinese policy, how we will do our research in China. This is my comment. Thank you. Of course, one of the really interesting things, if there's any nation at this point that is uniquely situated to either deal with or may be an intermediary between Russia and China. It would be Mongolia because of your geographic position, but also your historic position vis-a-vis China and Russia. And that may be the something that we need to explore in future workshop. Thank you. Yes. Exactly. Left-hand microphone to Diana. Okay. I just want to make a very quick comment about sinology. I agree with Alta that, that, that the study of sinology, I want to focus on the second part of our discussion, which is how China is changing. Chinese police policies are changing. So where we're also dealing with a rapidly China that is rapid aid redefining itself as communism receives and nationalism becomes more prominent. So when China redefines itself and actually is also undecided over whether to define itself as a modern nation state or as a civilization. I think the debate and still ongoing in China. And of course, in either definition, a question about menarche nationalities is, is a, a should play a prominent role. But so far it is not. So as, as China redefines itself and as China hesitates on what to do with its own identity, I think the study of sinology becomes more complicated. And there is less common ground between, say, an official Chinese statements about itself and Washington or foreign sinologist outside of China? There their definition. What China, yes. Yes. Yes. Quick, quick comment. I think that there's a chance for Chinese studies that in Tang, Chinese culture is more and more interested not for only sinologists and for example In the field studies. There are in fact lots of books about the, about the Chinese culture where were written by, by, by specialists from the field of film studies. But I think there is one danger which she's very serious that I have noticed that the Chinese government unified culture. For example, I wanted to, I wanted to grab some information about Hong Kong cinema. And those information are prohibited now. And for example, lots of movies from Hong Kong. I can, I can reach in Europe or in the United States by, but I cannot reach those materials from Hong Kong. And, and, and this unification is in my opinion, very dangerous. But, but, but the, the positive factor of, of, of this case is that not only sinologists are interested in Chinese culture, but but scholars from the other fields of academic, academic activities are interested in Chinese culture. Not, not only of course this chart, this modern Chinese culture, but, but, but traditional Chinese culture. And after all, we've got the Taiwan. So Antonina could can, can say a few words about this. But this, this, this, this situation is quite, quite the great danger that's dangerous that, that they, they, they wanted to communicate this disease feel for China's culture. Thank you very much. Okay. I'm unfortunately going to have to end our discussion. We were supposed to and 30 minutes ago as Antonina just informed me. I could go on and on. I think it's a fascinating discussion. But I wish to thank each of you. I also want to thank Andrea and Annabell, who are the two people that run the Indiana University Berlin Gateway office. With none of this would've been possible without their hard work on our behalf. They were very generous hosts. And I am fortunate to be at Indiana University that has spent an enormous amount of money and continues to spend an enormous amount of money to keep these international gateway centers open so that scholars like us, we can have these meetings. So my sincere thank you to both Andrea and Annabell for this. Antonina, any last words? Well, thank you, Micheal. I think I think we are, we are both very grateful to Indiana University Europe Gateway and our contributors for the wonderful work. And patience, especially responding to our endless emails when we are in the midst of the editing process that I think the result is very nice and I guess my plan, I are both very proud of it and we're very honored to work with all of you. So I guess we're kind of wrapping up our discussion. Not very optimistic way because it seems that there are challenges ahead and things are not going the right direction when we talk about freedom, access to information. and broadly understood cooperation with China and China experts probably would have all heard about cases when Chinese students even have problems now with the getting passports to study abroad, they are discouraged to study abroad to Chang, these colors are also discovered to have for contacts with the following scholars. Unlike it was ten years ago when actually there was a pressure to publish in American journals, for example. Now we can see the opposite tendency. So Mao, China has kind closing its borders, not opening up. So let's help. This process will not continue through the extreme are but somehow which will be reversed. And I hope that people like our wonderful quench your thirst will help others understand China. Because, because it's probably, it's very easy to blame China for everything present China as the main enemy. But the real question and the real task is to understand China and talk to China, discuss with China, negotiate with China and so on and so forth. Not to build another cartoon. So once again, thank you very, very much. And for the last two sentences, I will pass the microphone back to Michael. Thank you everyone. This has been great. I hope to see you all again at some point in person, and I hope that we can continue these discussions. Much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you many, many. Thanks. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
A two-part virtual conversation with Veteran and Holocaust survivor Karl Pfeifer, in dialogue with Erna B. Rosenfeld Professor Günther Jikeli and his students at Indiana University Bloomington.
Description of the video:
Welcome from IU Europe gateway. For today's conversations. We're very happy to co-host this event with Indiana University's Institute for the Study of contemporary antisemitism. I use Department of Germanic Studies and the memorial and educational side, House of the Wannsee Conference. The event is generously sponsored by the academic engagement network. Thank you. It is my great pleasure to introduce my colleague, historian and sociologists. Good. Thank you, Kelly, who we have who worked with on multiple occasions here at the Europe gateway, go into is the unhappy rules of how professor at the Institute for the Study of content, contemporary antisemitism in the born Jewish studies. You. And he's also associate professor at Germanic Studies in Jewish studies. He is also a permanent fellow at the moses Mendelssohn Center and at Princeton University. And then this is your floor. Good day. Thank you. Well, thank you so much, Andrea, for this reduction. And it's a bit of an experiment here, what we're doing. So we have Mike from three different, four different cities, people coming in and speakers. And then we have also a classroom where you see we're all wearing masks and we will see how that works out. But it's my great pleasure to introduce you to my friend Up fight that who will hopefully Jonathan and second, an image and carrying out. First. Thank you both of you for, for doing this. This is a very special event for me. How and I met ten years ago at a conference and also where he gave a talk on hungry and Anti-semitism. Since that content. And I learned more and more about race, very interesting life. When he was ten in 1938, Austria, we can cut off Nazi Germany. And he had to flee. His longtime piano. I was with his town, went to Hungary, but that was only relatively safe. And only for few years. When he was 14, he is cake on a train with 50 or the children to Palestine, organized by design civilization against all odds. Now, notice it will barrier, for example, wanted to send him and all the other children back and found to be yellow. That's comes against all odds. When he was about he, he arrived in Palestine and we found a home in a kibbutz. And a few years later, he was shot 20 before NB Palmer and bending the Israeli army until 1950. Es cell battery of insurance, War of Independence. He returned to Austria in 1951. Since jobs to do business abroad him to a number of countries, Italy, England, Switzerland, and even New Zealand. Returning again to Austria and worked as a journalist. First of all, we can mine and publication of the Jewish community in Ghana. And I have a sense of a freelance jobs. So it's still active journalist today, writing mostly. This brought in some trouble and court cases. One of the management, the European Court of Human Rights, where he won his case against the time I watch it. We will have another event, wisdom. How in two weeks, we'll speak more about the situation of antisemitism and moist. We're hungry. For those of you who've seen the documentary about God's life, I highly recommend that you can find it on the page with you you registered. I also recommend for those of you who read German is the spokes. One is i'm I'm, I'm not want unusually by May that is to Palestine, back the Jewish way of life. And another one on this five years ago, remember your own gun ultimately. That's an A-list most on Amazon. The evolution of whom God's translate that into hungry again and again. On behalf of nodes, nationalism, antisemitism in Hungarian political policy. Harry, I met you, I think in one of the earlier conferences here at the Institute for the Study of symbols met a young university, I think in 2016, but I'm not entirely sure. Why don't we go to 40. And my partner, he is a Professor Emeritus of English at the University of Illinois, and the author of at least 35 books. This includes the case against economic boycotts of Israel with Wayne State University class and each of the Nile and designers of the faculty campaign against the Jewish state with to be honest University Press. And his latest book that I highly recommend is not in Kansas anymore. Academic freedom and Palestinian Universities that is published by the target and make a Bayesian network and distributed by academic style. Dress came out this year. So the conversation to say that we will have and will be centered on what happened in Hungary. And the account slight bend to Palestine in the first years of Israel and the State of Israel in a tour of independence will probably also talk about some contemporary issues. But we'll have another event in two weeks time with cloud and Huffman, the director of the house of the man circumference, a memorial and educational site. And then where we want to focus more on anti-Semitism in Austria and Hungary. Following starts with a conversation. For about 35 minutes. We still have open then how to join us? He wasn't a test meeting at 50 minutes ago. So we hope that you will make it now traverse this webinar. After this 35 minutes where Carrier, how does some of the issues we take questions first from students here of, of this class, and then take questions from all of you who are watching this online participants, the Q&A or the chat, she can use that. And we will read the questions and just take as many as we can see that we feel full how to join. Is that any news about from from that? Maybe yeah, maybe just a word of explanation for people because there was there was an overlap in our initial use of the Zoom Room and link. Those of us. The panelists had to, from one link to another to we had to bail out with one link and start using another. And so I think the problem is that Karl may not have caught that message. So I thinking it might be sort of lost between legs. That means in cyberspace. But I can at least say that this was there. I want to thank Gunter and angry and Anna belts are setting this up. We're trying to set it up. And also for the wonderful opportunity to meet Carl, which I did for the first time, virtually yesterday. And also to put in a plug for the really wonderful film about his life, which I've watched. Why he said, when you watch it, wisely realized there'd be reason to Washington third time, it's just it's just full of brief descriptions of remarkable events in a life that is both very distinctive but also characteristic of Holocaust survivors who were exiled and travel across many countries. It's, it's a disruptive life in some ways characterizes a particular generation. So there's a lot to learn about coral, but also a lot to learn about history in the film. And it's very engaging, it's well done. It's completely absorbing. So I recommend the movie if any of you who haven't watched it yet, I certainly urge you to do that. And I made a last attempt. It seems to me that there was a meeting ID failure for him. I remove tending o as a Zoom Pro Grandma. Okay. If I was just visiting as it's super nice, Gregory, I just removed him from the panelists list, again, an additive. I hope that we will be with us in a second. I wasn't able to adamant under the same name, but now i'm I gave him a new name. Maybe that works. If not, I'm unfortunately out of solutions and maybe we need to come back to Gregory. Let's wait one more minute. I'm I'm extremely sorry for this is this has never happened to us and it shouldn't happen. I'm sorry for what wobbly a lot of us feel like is a little bit of a waste of your time. I think that will be good. We just need five more minutes and I think that maybe we can have a conversation between carrier may now, what do you have the impressive when you're watching this film? Because some of it, I think a lot of people who I see now we have 100 participants who have not, maybe not northern, watch this film and know about. And so I would like to ask you, carry you watched it twice. And when you when you move into when you saw that move into too hungry and head is how we'll just write his life there. As a young boy. He left when he was 14. He felt, when I watch the film, I saw that you had already had grasp the situation that many people have been not bad. This would be like an exact existential threat for, for all Jews who were still in Budapest, Hungary, empire. That was, as a young boy, he was able to see that. And he absolutely Well, that was my impression when we should ask him, is that his his family went through the process that many German and Austrian families did. Which was to think that because they were loyal Germans or Laurel asked Austrians because in an, often enough, they had served in a German army in World War One. They felt safe and they felt so deeply German that they could not themselves being at risk. Now in Germany itself, where you were even more directly aware of the rise of Hitler. A lot of German Jews left. A lot of German Jews realized that something was happening here that put them in danger. Of course, for a while, the Nazis had a policy of encouraging Jews to emigrate. They, at first they thought, we want to get rid of these people. So not only did many German Jews guess that something was going on, they didn't guess the Holocaust. They didn't imagine mass murder. That's people just couldn't see that until it actually began to happen. But a lot would leave. But many others who didn't leave had this characteristic response, which was weird. We're committed to Germany as a country where you grew up here. We see ourselves as citizens. They didn't imagine that all of that with sort of count for nothing or even less than nothing. And there were even, even Jewish family is the head change to Christianity 50, 7500 years earlier. But for the Nazis, since there was a racial theory didn't matter, you couldn't become a Christian. Once a Joe, He's Jew. Jewish blood in your ancestors, always a Jew. And so they were all vulnerable to be killed. It's if you see the film, you'll see that Carl's family barely got out of Germany to get into Hungary. I mean, that was that was a very close call. They really, they really got out of Germany when it was too late. So that was sort of the first really close call and Carl's life of which there were many, many instances when when he almost didn't make it and that that train trip out of Hungary, he, at the border, German troops wanted to send all of the kids to Auschwitz where they would be murdered. At the last minute. They were, they were actually hungarian troops, not German troops. So they decided art, we'll let them go. But that was yet another brush with death that in some ways occurred over and over again in Carl's life. Quite, quite remarkable. To hear that I'm hungry was of course, no safe bet to get into Hungary was to get into the, basically the next place the Nazis would take over. And Carl did seem to sense that this was risky, but the parents understandably really didn't. They were much more characteristic of many families who've grown up in these countries and thought that, that they belonged in them. And that's why you can see that both the mix of Carl's own awareness and the families failure to be aware is so characteristic of that generation and so tragic. Now of course, if you, if you go to the east into, into, I mean, if you go to the west and the east right into Poland, then there's even less awareness of what was about to happen. Because Hitler rose in Germany, there was a lot of publicity about the Nuremberg Laws, 135 and so forth that made Germans aware in Poland, where half of the Jews of Europe lived, virtually no one guessed what would happen when Nazis took over. Nazis took over half the country. It's hard, hard to find anyone who foresaw the vast murder that was going to take place. Karl, love this directly in his life and serve a series of miracles. I mean, really, you couldn't count on any of these things working out well. But it gives us a lot to learn from and really quite compelling as a result. Yeah, I think, I mean, it was remarkable. I think, of the, one of the things that are happening here, these Zionist groups that eventually got him to take it on this tray to get out of there with under 50, judge. And that was because he was organized this amazing Zionist through and Hungary. And that then it's only a few of these kids could get out. But he was one of them. So that was that was the lucky situation. But he may want to go independently. We call one. See you next video where he discussed with his uncle what you do is up, I'm also a hungry. And he told him that, well, the Jews are getting killed. And if he doesn't want to sell this business, and as he said, Call it was the situation of many people at the time. But I didn't realize that it could get worse for. It couldn't even imagine that there was this muscular mass killing going on or any of the 43. But he definitely wanted to get out. I've got an artery that we got out of this training. Remember that by 943, most of the Jews, by the end of 43, most of the Jews who would be killed in Poland and the Soviet Union has already been murdered. I mean, that's the mass murders that began in 941 had almost run their course by the end of 19431. Other thing that was amazing about that, the train trip out of Hungary toward Palestine as that at the last minute call, it wasn't scheduled to be on the train. At the last minute. Another boy who was scheduled to be on the train couldn't make it. And so Carl was given his that boys place, but Carl had to travel under that boy's name. Another just, you know, you get the sense that life is full of unpredictable chance. When you when you see pal Karl, the things that happened to Carl, you just you get the feeling that you don't get to control your life. There are times when history just sweeps across the world and forces outside your control determine what your life was like. Happened to him more than once. He got he he he got to Israel and his brother was already in Israel. And in the the, the father, I think, of the boy who was supposed to be on the train arrived at the displaced persons camp to meet his son. Carl was called out because Carl was still under the name of the boy who was supposed to be there. And then the boy's father was of course, really shocked and dismayed that it was Carl who showed up, not the sun. Just another in a series of. Very poignant and almost tragic incidents that, that shaped his life. And then remarkably also partly through chats. Karla ended up becoming a journalist. Actually a very successful journalist. You wrote for, for magazines and newspapers around the world. Some of his work was translated. That was almost, almost an accident as well. He was, he was given an opportunity to write something and he did very well at and I one of the things I wanted to ask him was he had no training as a journalist. He had no experience journalism, and he got this chance to do it in to be successful. And I was curious whether he had any idea where the skill came from. No, I think of journalists training and college and being apprentices and gradually moving up. Carl just stepped into the role and miraculously succeeded at it. Well, something in him must have prepared him for that public role, but we don't really know what it is. I'm hoping that, you know, it's a question that I get to ask. Doesn't mean that those all of you in class from them can expect that if you drop out of school, you can do to be successful journalists. But we'll find out maybe what happened. Carl's live, right? Yes. That's right. It was it was a lot of David was. One thing that I would like to ask you is, why did he go back to Australia and seven times? Because he does write it. One of the questions for being here. Was that your question? I think that who had this question saying? Well, he said that there is a you cannot really use that to scan, cannot make an A3 or that kind of contradicts what he said. There isn't Vienna. So why did he always we try to again, I mean, that's just me. So I mean, I know that he is very active and engaged in coining, are going to see, you might see them today in Austria. So that's part of is why I think to deal with that. But I wanted my classroom. Okay, wait, what is that? That is a well known to the Greeks. You back. Well, he's, he's famous not only in the film but in other contexts for saying that is the original decision to return the Austria was the worst decision I ever made in the light. But as you point out, he kept going back over and over again. I think I understand what he means by the worst decision in his life, because it meant that he had to engage with Austria and antisemitism. And he had to confront it and live with it. And I think that's, that's very difficult, especially if you're a Holocaust survivor, go to Israel, you, and you live there, you live a different life. But if you, especially in those years, apparently even now in Austria, you can encounter a great deal of hatred. And it's like you had enough hatred during the Holocaust years. You don't, you don't need more of it. What's very interesting, I think in Carl's case is that. He ended up becoming an Austrian, whose job it was to criticize Austria. His accommodation with Austria and anti-Semitism was to be a reporter who exposed it and who wrote about it on a, criticised other elements of Austria and political and cultural life. So he's a kind of an anti Austrian, austrian, someone who's, you know, who's part of, I guess the loyal opposition, who finds, identifies the problems in the country and writes about them as a journalist, which is, I think an extremely interesting way of accommodating yourself to an environment that is in many ways hostile to Jews. It's not everyone could handle that. I mean, it's you'd have to have a somewhat toughs to be in that role of absorbing hostility and then turning it into intelligent criticism. That's a, it's a great lesson for a journalist. But it's not, it. It's a lesson that a lot of people could not embody in their lives. It just would be too stressful. The other thing you'll note in the film, and I wanted to ask them about is that there's a lot of irony in the film. He really, I think he survives in part because of his sense of humor and his ability to see things ironically. And I'm curious whether he found other Holocaust survivors who were in part saved by irony. Because grief would, could easily take over your life. Grief, guilt har, could take over your life. And he found a way and even to be sort of whimsical times. And I think it's a great personal strengths. His part or this part. If you see the film, you'll see lots of evidence of that. And I'm just my guess is he had reflected on that at some point, right? How he survived in part by achieving and ironical perspective. And I hope that he can talk to us about. He got, he got in trouble with the 1990s, 995. To be exotic. He published a piece when we criticize no publication by the FBI, close to the Earth with three party in Austria. That's the language that was used by many of the authors. Obligation was very much in the painting of Naziism. And so we publish that. One political scientist, professor with the name five bagger is you live on that. But he won the case. And I saw that went very far out for, for many years. And also in these court cases, you also do a lot of stomach to to keep on going to make your case. So now eventually we talked about cow or a pig. Welcome. I'm so sorry that this was a match. And we're extremely showy. Yes. So-so we okay. Let's go ahead. Yeah. Okay. We sprayed we explain. We went over your time of your life. And j we can go ahead directly now. The questions, what do you thing? Because most, some people have watched the film. Alice, we just told them about our brightness built into the metadata. Also, watch the film and common carrier and I talked about baseball an hour, an hour now. And maybe we can immediately go into the questions from the students. What do you think we we set it back to you, some of them already in advance, please. Yeah. Okay. So maybe we do this here from here now. William C, or you deal. Okay. No. But is there I think yes. There will be less than 100. They had to you had two questions about Israel. Maybe you want to ask them now to the camera and fence. Okay. Who wants to go first? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. At the membrane I came up with that take off your mask. So I see almost no. We cannot, we are not allowed to take off the mask of that. Okay. I really truly madly, yeah. Okay. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. You are living under the British Mandate, Palestine before Israel was officially declared a state, filing for this creation of a state. Can you elaborate more about what that experience was like and how the people you lived in mom related to the news of independence? Well, you see on the day of the Declaration of Independence, I was at the front, was in the salt, it near in and, and was in a fighting force. So I do not know how the people are real. I know how they react it, but I know it already from papers and from USBE. How we reacted, we rein action, which means it was war. On that day, the Egyptians marched towards they will already inside the country and they started to bump us. This was for me, the Declaration of Independence isn't an answer. Does it? Does it answer your question? Because I can only tell from my experience, you know. My experience was in the morning of the 15th of May, 1948 up the Egyptian airplanes through the sent us leaflets is let drop leaflets enable to us in the name of the god, of the merciful God, etc. And they ask us to give up. Which of course we did not. He said, Hey, you because you were hiding out in front lines. Then was it an exchange expand to go grab that when you get a half reaction or that you bought. Just a moment. I get my I get my thing because I cannot hear you. I can understand what you see, you know, come a bit closer slowly. Jeremy Corbyn already. Okay. So following up with what you said, you were on the front lines as the State of Israel being declared. So was that a very strange transition for yellow going from being in a fight to all on a sudden watching other people experience sort of celebration about the state. It seems like it's a strange juxtapositions. Well, nothing has changed in everyday life. You see when you are a soldier, you have your weapon or you'll have your command that says Do this, do that. And on that day, we did not do anything. We went we had our book, we hit our plates is where we went down on the pen, prevent a bomb does speak, hiding inside. And that was it. So life did not change a lot only that this was the first time we were bombed by Egypt airplanes. And we had no, We had no weapon against it. Or if we had the baby and not at at the place where we were. So it was not very pleasant to be bumped, you know, and some fellows died and some fellows lost their legs and they are the end. So it was quite dangerous. And I was, I was at that time 20 years old and my attitude was quite phlegmatic. I said, okay, let's see what is going to happen. It is it going to double up? I was not was not consumed mistake because I could not be pessimistic. You if if I'm pessimistic, if we up as simplistic, we are going to lose. So we had to be optimistic. Okay. Nice. I'm Hannah, your question you were saying? Yeah, maybe not, but maybe if you have this question, I think but the first years of the yeah. Yeah. And speak slowly as you can. So I was just wondering. What was it like waiting by the starter is routing. Stay on how you talk about that and you are worried or more optimistic about the future. Well, as I said, when you are 20 is owed and you allow me, then you'll better be optimistic Tian-hou. Because if you are pessimistic, then you know that self-fulfilling prophecies. And if you don't believe that, then probably you will be hurt. So my my attitude during this war was except one short beard when I was very much afraid. When I want, this was before the State. Was that good because it's spring a 9800 48 when I was accompanying kind of adds to the lot from the alarm was in the South. They had to go through villages and deathless in a little UI net armored car. You have a little window, you'll look through. And that was really dangers. And there was also a wound bed there. But after this, I felt everything is okay. Your normal there was a frontline at I had a weapon and I have a, I had a fair chance. So I must say that the army, especially our unit, was very, was in a very good Muji usually. But when I, when I was in this, in spring 48, when I was taking caravans, Trojan auch. That was also, we were optimistic. But every evening when we came back to our base, you know, to Pasi, Yeah. We had to shovel we had to make a gray for somebody because we always add some that come rates and we had to put them into the chat. So usually it went like this. We put an office hour per surgeon sits few words. Don't be shocked if you push the air and then pay went to the dining room. And there they all think was forgotten to know that life continue like this would not have happened. Ten minutes ago. We made jokes, life and on, because you see, if, if you start to think about this, you cannot fight and fighting situation. The UF wants to fight. They had no choice. Because of course we did. We did everything before. I mean, before the, before the war started, before. Before that. The Jewish issue of this was the Jewish community in Palestine. Did everything to have to continue life in peace. But this was not possible because on neighbors would not let us live in peace. So we had to fight and, and, and, and my generation was decided that this should not be forgotten. It was three years after the end of Second World War, in my generation was decided that it can never happen again. That we will be defenseless and that we will have to depend on others. So the whole idea of the state of Israel was not to depend on others, but to depend on ourselves. Is that good? Yeah. Okay. Any other questions? Any questions related to visual? How widely enough and after that, after the war, how you went badly and 51, but you started or three years after the war, our situation, one has to know that there was a mass m equation at i was released from the army on the 1st of January 950. So I had the right, according to the law, at that time, three months of unemployment benefit, but not to give us their unemployment benefit. They gave us two days of work in a building, in a building. And with that be a few cents more than the unemployment benefit. But we worked very hard for those two days. And when the three months over, the Labor Office did not give us any more work. So my equation was the following. I was in a camp for really soldiers. There were many of them. And I had no job. I had no money. And I had some bags because I asks from the top, I'll close with money. I ask them to low to give me a load. I got some lone. And after a few months of this situation with a good friend of mine, we went to the Labor Office in the afternoon because if we would go in the morning, 1000, oh, 100, 500 people would queue up for a job. And when we went there, they encode us all kind of names and said you young people, you have, you have. You want to take that away from us. So it was impossible for us to go and line up because they would not let us. But in the afternoon, we went to the Labor Office and we saw outside the labor of fish was a board and on the board. The search for people who want to become waiters ownership. And we add my, myself and my friends. We decided we want to be where it is on the shape was better than to be unemployed. And so b, both of us got, they got the possibility on this one week, one week seminar. And I met some Am, I met a fellow from the camp. And I told him this and you are lucky one both run to the label office of the, of the, of the, the port of Haifa was in Haifa. And show them that you are received and then they give you two nights ownership on unloading a shape. This is what we did, but of course, when you unload cement or you unload vote or heavy things then in the morning time, but we had to go to the seminary. The secondary ahead. Wait a, it was a Viennese Jew to he liked me because I came from Austria and I talked to him in German. So he came to my table and add my friend stable and he said, look, in reality, I should not let it pass. I should let us. But since your fellows, you have fought in the army, etcetera, etcetera. I let your pants. Okay. So life was very, very difficult at that time. I had a brother in in Jerusalem, was married and had a little go. And food was my food was also it was a ration that will meet was ration. Everything was on. Basically it was austerity like in England. Okay. Thank you. And that you return, if you want to be returned to Austria. As though there were some questions here about philosophy. And one that we, when, when you are not Muslim, we already mentioned that, but maybe you can answer that. You said in this family said Jews, it, you cannot live in luxury and maintain dignity. It's a contradiction. So, but you still live in Australia. So how, how do you make this look, ISOS? I was I had a friend in farads who was legally there. My friend from the army. He was legally there. And he said, Why don't you come to France? And so as I had as an Israeli, let's say passe, there was no national passport and it was difficult to get a visa to France. So I went illegally. The police caught me. I was I'm a sentence to one peak it someday in Paris, in the biggest, the biggest jail in Paris. Not, not a very pleasant place to be. I cannot recommend it. And after one week. They sent me back to Austria and I was I was going with the agenda, with the police the police, but I was handcuffed to him. We went the whole night across Germany. And in the morning at five o'clock. For how fast forward we arrived at the railway station. A French military car was waiting for us. And there's your undamped took me to the Austrian border and he said stone. Us first thoughts was a treble. But boy you will at home. So I went to, I went to pray gets it was a few kilometers. And I said to the next policemen, I'm an Austrian. Like you said, Whoa, you're announced yet. Okay. Then you have to go to the state police in Innsbruck. I said I have no money. No problem. And he spoke something and I could go free. Like when I went to the state police, I was received by the director. And when I said I'm behind one with an Austrian who is coming home, he said to me, Mr. FIFA, the law for the homecare is only for those who have been to the mouth portals above MSS. And since you have not been, you will be taken care of, but don't be afraid you will be taken care of the Jewish community. This was a Austria and attitude. So I cannot say that we were discriminated against, but we will not we will not welcome what it this way. Then, when I was, after seven days, I went to Vienna and I went to the Jewish community. I was very naive young fellow. And I was sitting before the office of the social help. Social assistance. And a fellow came out. It was a Cold War. And he asked me, How do you like Austria was one week. I said for my taste, the Nazis are very loud yet. So I was qualified as a communist there and social democrats and which I was not. And I was sent to the asylum of the city of Vienna. Hitler was before the First World War. So I started in a dormitory with 49 other people. This is where it started in Vietnam. But it's not a very pleasant experience. But I was lucky after three weeks of being unemployed, I found employment in nearby cell, was in labor. And this is how I started my life in Austria. So we won't turn very shortly to be aggressive and carry had another interesting question. I wanted to give them access to our sponsor requested before we can only take one question here from Mr. If you have that, please. Guard. Is Carl in those in those early days when you returned to Austria? And I even before then when you are in Israel, did you often meet other Holocaust survivors and wasn't important to you to share experiences. And is that still the case today? They still interact with other Holocaust survivors. As part of your life. First thing was in Israel, if you wanted 0 in binary is time. If you want it or not, you came into contact with trilobites because already had 45. 44. There were illegal, illegal immigrants. The fact of the matter is that the British had the white book in 39. The White Book limited legal immigration to Palestine. So 75 thousand persons. And this was in 44, 45, the, the, the, the, this, this was finished. So people campaign, but they came in illegally. And in the keyboard to I was happy they weren't taking in people who are survivors. And of course, we were very much interested in the experiences that they would not tell about. I never had, never would any one who had a number on his eye and tell us about Auschwitz, you know, we knew about it. But we did not ask them to tell us because of we knew how. This is not a simple matter. You're not somebody was there. Please tell us about this, you know, but we knew what happened. And of course we were beware in a, in a, in a very bad mood against the British because they did not let in those survivors. And even President trauma and ask them to let in a 100 thousand Jews. And the British would not let them in. So one of the reasons why I joined my group, joined by mouth, the commando troop of the Hagana was because we wanted to have those people to come, to, come to Palestine. And It, it, it looks like, oh, let's say today some people say that there was not an interest in this survivors and that's not true. At all. People were doing everything, that they should be integrated. And they were intubated in Israel with all the difficulties of people who, who come from and don't speak the language have to learn. They don't know that the climate problem, a lot of problems. But This is the first part of your question. The second part was after I did, when I started in Austria, after a year or so, I went to the Austrian voters and I started to work and they look at business and may send home. I met some people who were so bad, but no, it was different when I became a newspaper man and then when I became a journalist Bay late in my life, I was 51 years of age. Then I became when I became a journalist and width 54, I got the job as editor of The Jewish paper of the end of the official paper. And then of course it was part of my duties. Who have contact to all kinds of tubes. Survive as much as people who were a term, people who came from the Soviet Union. And on their way they were not going to Israel, they were staying in Austria. So but today there are not many survivors in Vietnam. I don't, I don't not know. Even, even when I look at my people who were with me, soldiers in my group where I started those uncomfortable. I'm still in contact. The others on either their dad or they're not funky ink like I function, you know. But they don't your candidate speak to them? They cannot. Or do you say they are either senile or government or whatever? Okay. Question answered. Now it's extremely, extremely interesting to get that sense of breadth of overtime. You want to ask a question. Before we go too far with the class here, I see that we only have 10 minutes left. But we want you to get to some open questions in the chat. I'm sorry. We have debates. Do you want to go so on. So then somebody will give to that yeah. The word. Okay. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Then I will. Maybe actually, we had I think three or four comments slash questions. Funding had been set. And maybe I'll just start with her second because it's it's related to what you already talked about. But the question is, Mr. Fifa, why did you go back, back to Europe to anti, meaning hunky-dory? We all know about. It is a question which I'm always asked. And it's a bit, the answer should be more complex. I cannot see I went home. I went back to Austria because I was homesick. That would be a crust lie. The fact is that when I left Hungary, I left not under my own name. In the past, in the Hungarian in the Hungarian emigration paper, another name was written because the certificate that permit of entry to police time was according to quotas and my youth movement exchange date. They had. That means they team up a religious one. They wanted to have a certificate file go. So the initial merits a which I was said okay. If we get a certificate that but give us a cent if PEPFAR boy, that got they got this certificate under this name. And I was under this name in Palestine and in this way. But I wanted to get back my mean, I sought if I got when I went to France, I shouldn't go to the Austrian Embassy and I will ask for papers. But I could not go to the haustra an open she because the police caught me. And I told you what happened. When I was in Austria. I found, I found it a extremely unpleasant place to be at that time, I must say. But it's really extremely unpleasant. And it was unpleasant also because I was Jewish. And people would, I would go, I tell you a story. I would go to, I went to a shop in Vietnam in 50 end of fiscal beginning of 51. And the girl there ask ask me Can I ask you a question? Go ahead. Ask. And she said you, an aristocrat or a colleague, a Jew. But she said a Jew, which was it like KYC, but it was not it was a Jew. And I ask you why do you ask? She said because you speak like one. I can answer. Why? Because people who like myself for return to Australia, we spoke the old Austrian. Austrian spoke before 38. This is what I do. But after 45, Austrians did not want to be part of Germany or Austria. A nation was really in being in 45. And people, everyone in Vienna, almost everyone spoke a dialect, a Viennese dialect, or an upper triangle theory on whatever dialing. And when somebody like myself who spoke nice German, they thought it can be only and I will stroke out or do. Now is give you the answer, how it gives you a feeling how it was. Now, let's see another thing. Of course. It was also another thing. I was 23 years old in 51. And of course I wasn't normal man. I wanted to meet some births. So where do you meet girls? You go to the high Hagen in Vienna, where you can have a glass of wine, big table, and have some food which you have put yourself. At that time, there were no elaborate Heinrich and wheat bread if you could have warm and cold for no, you entered by the Ford in a shop and then you drank all in the y. But I try beach. But on the next table, people like Austrians, but telling jokes about gas chambers, yellow. So I decided it's not my place, it's not. And, and of course I was lucky I went to a hotel school. And the first thing I did, I went abroad. I did not stay in Austria. One question I see here about heart failure in half an hour. How when I was in the army, if I understood the Hebrew, of course, came in. I came to Palestine when I was 14. I was not 50 years old. And within one year I spoke perfect Hebrew. Within one year I read Hebrew papers without the without. So I read every everything in Hebrew. After one year. I had one year difficulties. But of course, because it was a new language. But when I was in the army, perfect. I had the very good Hebrew teacher in the kibbutz reformer. He was, he was a religious person in his youth, and he had a very good Jewish ditches advocate. And that was a great advantage because I learn a very good Hebrew. And many, many years after this, when I was editor of the Jewish paper, a phone call came from Jerusalem. And the fellow there was the manager of the community who would be a row. He was not there. So I was connected to query straight to these regular aid you follow. And I think he asked me a question. I gave him a straight answer. He said, wouldn't you like to work for me? Of course, there's freelance. I said next week I'm in Jerusalem. Let's talk about it. And that was for 15 years. I was pretty lands course for them for the Israeli raid, you enable it. The whole thing went on. There was no sky, no computer. The whole thing went on on telephone. And when I made the mistake in Hebrew, they stopped me and said, Look, here we are at the Israeli radial. You have to speak correct? Hebrew. I'm going to tell you I'm going to spell it now, how you should spell it. And then usaid, and then we put it in the correct. Word and this is how it works. So my go to April 15 years. I was for 50 years correspondent of Israeli radio. Now, there was not much money in it, I must say. But it was a lot of honor because my family, let's say my my brother or my other son of my brother. He for me and after this, he said, Look, I was on my hours by car. I was traveling from Haifa to Tel Aviv and I heard your voice. So that was it. So my Hebrew was bullets. Yes. Thank you. Yes. They're the class out here. The, the girl comes to an end and students will have to go to another class soon. So I think some students will leave now, but maybe we can not read. That's okay with you because we started really might go a little bit longer. So pair with U. We go on a little bit longer to go over what they said, Okay. We should use okay, when you need to leave, of course, you, you really can then maybe you can mute yourself for the sounds in the room so that it's not disrupting if you mute your phone? Yes. Yeah. So I see quite a number of questions that are more related to Karl's experience of more contemporary antisemitism. And I want to remind our audience that into weeks we have another session that I promise will be more smoothly and on time. It hits so that we can get to these questions then. But there was also a couple of other questions. Yeah, and maybe we can even get to one of the more contemporary ones. Demystify for how did you get into Heschel Mads after arriving in Hungary, could you say something about the actual math? Heads as work in Budapest? Very easy. One. I was pushed you in Hungary was a boarding school in debits and to learn and engage in Delft of the first year. It was should you nine, War Two started and I had two are going to already, my parents let me go alone to the gymnasium, to the Jewish given mass you. And it was at that time, in theory, every pupil had to have a cap below with the logo of fish called the logo of us core walls. Everyone sees it as a menorah, the logo of the State of Israel. And So everyone, I'm, I'm a pupil of the Jewish people, not sure. When I left the Trump. Opposite. Pupils from the Christian and give nausea, called me dirty Jew, stinking Jew, all which I knew from Austria at this time in Hungarian. And when I learned Hungarian endeavor, it's in there boning school. I was told I'm a Hungarian like everyone else. Now I have the feeling, I have been to this cinema. I have seen this before. And it'll be short on the short way to the given us yet, but 300, 400 meters. I decided two things. First of all, I deducted, there is no God, because in religion we learned, we are the elected people. What the hell is coming? I am belonging to the elected people and I've called it. It's thinking through this. So they can be, the conclusion was no go. But the second conclusion was even more radical. Am not a Hungarian. And since they call me all kinds of names, I don't want to be. At that moment, I simulated myself. And in this school, I said to everyone, we have to go on Saturday to the synagogue. Why the hell do we have to do this anyway? There is no God. Second, we have to stand up in the morning and see a patriotic Hungarian boy and we are not Tonga ends, we are Jews. So after two months in January, belief or February, 40, 40, a fellow who was with me and the class came up to me and said, Do you do you want to come to a festivity of Purim fuel boys who think like yourself. And since I had no French in Budapest, I said yes. And when I came there, there was a youth leader. I felt we were 11 years old and he was 18. And E Lee was a very good pedagogue. And I told him, Look, there is no God and we are not Hungarians. And I want to go to police time. My brother there. He said, fine, fine, everything is fine. There is no God and we are no longer term. We and we want to go to Palestine. And so I did not know that I'm joining Illegal movement. That only I knew when I was in. First, they did not tell me what when. After a few weeks they had confidence in me. And I was told I was quite happy. This was the way. Beware. Of course, one has to say in, you'll see, there was a lot of which you did not ask a question, but later on, I was revolting also against the brainwashing or no, because we were brainwashed in the kibbutz. Hi, I'm telling us stallion, he's right in every sink, but the Jewish question day and makes a mistake. So this logic did not punch. I said, if we make some mistake, probably be making a mistake also in other things. But still as a soldier, you 4849, I was member of my pump out of the left socialist party. But in 49, I was kicked out because of right-wing deviance. I was not believing that T2 is a fascia. So from that form for the nine, I was not anymore. I believe. It's, it's I understand believers Yolo and find them also very interesting. But, but I was too much of a rationalist and I could not take this logic. Okay. So this is a way I joined Azure ML to you. Thank you so much. Before maybe add one more question I want to also read. Carl actually gets to see them to comments that came in. One is from Mr. Cohen call this isn't really a question, more an expression of admiration. You are an inspiration to all of us. And your ability to communicate with young people is a real gift. As I already knew from my own two sons and their encounters with you stay well and healthy different. In another comment is actually suggesting that we share the recording of this in the beginning, a little bumpy session with young people so that they can continue to see interaction with survivor holocaust survivors and witnesses. So I just wanted to share some of the Appreciative appreciative comments. And if I can suggest, because they had been quiet a few questions about more recent experiences and where do you live now? Do you feel anti-Semitism now? Maybe you can give a kind of an answer to that. And all knowing that we will have another session that will be about your more more recent at least life. But just in case those people who two I get a day, they not all of them might be able to join us in two weeks. So maybe you can talk a little bit about OK, shortly. I will tell you this. In Ostia we have since last year, since January 2000, we have a conservative green government. And this is, as far as I know, and I know it because I live is with interruptions. Since 51, this is a government which is doing everything it can to help. Jewish life in Austria, which means the Jewish community had to pay for the security. And it paid a lot of its its budget was spent because of security. And why did we have to have security? Because there was an Arab Palestinian terror attack on the synagogue. 81. So soon it will be 40 years. And now the government is covering those expenses. This is one thing. Second, in the government program is a very clear stand against anti-Semitism. This is government policy and, and also government policies. Not to vote in silly votes against Israel. This is also government policy in Austria. And of course, one has to see, you ask me, is every other anti-Semites in Australia you yes. Of course, yeah. Antisemitism is there. But you don't have it. Politicians will not voice anti-Semitic things. This is episode. If somebody does it, it says, is suicide, political suicide. As one. The second, you have not very seldom an anti-Semitic word in the media. What you have. And that doesn't come from the right-wing, that comes from left-wing persons is in the state media. Sometimes you have very unfair comments and very unfair reports on Israel. But this is not government policy. This is one thing as a second thing is that this is a first government, not just a second government, which is in its program taking align against political Islam. We had, on the 9th of November, we had big police was searching about a 100, more than 100 ohms and 100 Islamic institutions. And there is a big discussion on this, you know. But I would say most Austrians, which for this policy, because in the past, people were not the limb media was not reporting when something happens, you know, they did not report the name of the person of the perpetrate. Now, in part of the media, it's changing in another or not. And I must say, I'm coming from the left. But sometimes I think I will have the next time. If, if, if I have to vote, I will vote for the president. Reactionary. I say or action a chancellor, yellow because he is not a 0 and a lot of it. But he, when he got, when he became chancellor, got a lot of images and a lot of alcohol on these Facebook. You got anti-Semitic posting. She had once made it public and went to the police because this cannot be tolerated. So in a way, I feel that the situation is much more. It's clear in Austria. And I would not say that it is as it is. So in Germany because I speak German and because it is is my native tongue. And when I watch things going on in Germany, I cannot say that everything is so clear. Even with the votes, Austrian doesn't vote in the United Nations. On principally when this boats are you alone or kind of phony condemnation of this? Well, Australia is not participating in it. And Germany sometimes, yes. So there is a defense. So this is one. And then the second thing which I say which has changed today, nobody would tell me, Well, nobody would question that. I'm an Austrian. That would sometimes ask, how do you feel more an osteon? Do you feel more a Jew? Which is of course is silly question because I'm bored. I'm Australia and I'm Jewish. And that goes very well. Then nobody, nobody would ask today. A fellow who came from Turkey and became an Austrian citizen. Nobody was saying in his mind would ask him, you'll feel more in Australia or do you feel more Turk? But with the Jews, they, they, they have this feeling. They must ask. And, but I must say when I go to Austria in schools, they asked me about my identity, that this is a fair question. Do you feel announced yet? Yes, I do feel and Austria or not? I'm living here. I'm paying my taxes here. I'm voting. I'm an Austrian citizen. What was so silly about Trump? I may say so was that he scolded American Jews because how dare they vote for the Democrats? You know, who you should vote for you or for your Prime Minister, Netanyahu. But Latanya always look, my prime minister is not the prime minister of American Jews. I'm for the existence of the State of Israel. But I'm not. But I'm an Austrian. Let's face the fact that's my native tongue. I write German. My English is also I speak with a German accent, so yeah. That's it. Yeah. Thank you very much. We have we have done over time 15 minutes and I'm very sorry that there was more than an hour. Really do love of travel. It's our phone. We apologize when we, uh, we really happy that you have the patient and also be participants. But they're still mindset of the people at B and B watching us. So we're very grateful for all of your patients. But we will add here, but we will follow up in two weeks. But we'll talk more about Germany, Austria. Let's, let's arrange for everything because you'll see you have to take into consider it the constant, the Reshma 92. We use moca. And I, my, my, my, my, my ability for techniques is, is very limited or no. Actually, I did ordinary button. It is extraordinary. You were you, you were very patient with us too. And we managed to get you in this webinar, which didn't seem, seem very lucky. So we really, really want to express our gratitude for being so patient. And you can extend. I'm ready. I have my dilemma. And I could sit here until I was more an answer questions. I noticed such questions. Many Obama abuse, but also just a moment, lose me. I have to leave. Yes, you are. Excuse excuse. My cheek goes out or without you, Senora. Thank you very much again also from my side, Carrie, also for your great way off and entertaining the crowds for more than 20 minutes. Thank you very much for that. And Carl, again, thank you so much for for being here with us tonight. Today. We look very much forward to seeing you in two weeks. Again. Bye-bye. Bye, everyone.
Description of the video:
Okay, I think I'm going to start. My name is Andrea Adam Moore and I'm the Director of the Indiana University Europe Gateway in Berlin, Germany. We're very happy to welcome you all here. Warm welcome again to Debbie Hartmann, to Karl Pfeifer, to Günther Jikeli. And of course to all of us who are joining us remotely today. I'm very, very happy to be in the room with these great people for the second session with Karl Pfeifer who we're very grateful for having here. I'm just going to briefly introduce my colleague Günther Jikeli and then I will give the word to Günther. Günther Jikeli is the Erna B. Rosenfeld Professor at the Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism and the Borns Jewish Studies Program at Indiana University Bloomington is an associate professor of Germanic Studies and Jewish studies. He is a permanent fellow at the Moses Mendelssohn Center here at the nearby Potsdam University. I've worked with Günther many times on life in-person events at the Berlin gateway. here. And I'm very happy to have you here in a virtual session again, Günther. I very much look forward to the conversation, and I'll see you later for the Q&A. Thank you so much, Andrea. It's always a pleasure to work with you and also thank you to Annabell to help us making this happen. I have now the pleasure to introduce you to my friend Karl Pfeifer and Deborah Hartmann. First, thank you both, Karl Pfeifer and Deborah Hartmann, for doing this. This is really great that we can have this as an event together between the two of you. Karl and I, met ten years ago at a conference in Warsaw. So that was an academic conference organized by our mutual friend Dina Porat from the Kantor Center at Tel Aviv University. Karl, you gave a talk there about antisemitism in Hungary. And that was 10 years ago. And we will see, I think in our discussion today, that a lot of things have been even accelerated since. We have been in contact ever since. I followed your writings, you're still a very active journalist. But you were born a long time ago. In 1938, you had to leave Vienna when you were 10, when Austria became part of Nazi Germany. So you have to, for your hometown, you went to Hungary, but that was only relatively safe for only for a short time. And when you were 14, you escaped on a train with 50 other children to Palestine organized by the Zionist Organization Haschomer. Against all odds Nazis in Bulgaria wanted to send you and, and all of this back. I mean, you survived this this trip even where there were a lot of hurdles wherein the way wanted to send you back and you eventually made it against all odds to Palestine. You found a home then in a Kibbutz a few years later. And when you were about 20, you fought in the Palmach and then in the Israeli army until 1950. You're thus a veteran of Israel's war of independence, however, you return them to Austria. And this is what we will talk about a lot today. You'll return to Austria in 1951. You had a job in the hotel business and this brought you then to many countries, Italy, Switzerland, England, and even New Zealand. I think you speak about six languages. And you return then back to Austria and work there as a journalist for the Gemeinde, a publication for the Jewish community in Vienna. And then ever since as a freelance journalist. So this work as a journalist brought you some trouble as well, hopefully all for pleasure, but also trouble. Some court cases, one of them ended at the European Court of Human Rights. Where you won your case over the Republic of Austria. For those you, who of you haven't seen it. I highly recommend to watch the documentary about Karl Pfeifer's life. You will find the link on the page where you registered for this event. For those who read German, I also recommend his book Einmal Palästina und zurück. Ein jüdischer Lebensweg. To Palestine and back: a Jewish life of way. And also another book that Karl Pfeifer, or maybe you want to show it. Immer wieder Ungarn. This is the book. Immer wieder Ungarn: Autobiographische Notizen, Nationalismus und Antisemitismus in der politischen Kultur Ungarns. Translates to Hungary Again and Again: Autobiographical Notes, Nationalism and Antisemitism and Hungarian Political Culture. Now to Deborah Hartmann. Welcome. You are, I think still in Tel Aviv, but moving to Berlin very short, because you are the new director of the House of the Wannsee Conference. This is a memorial and educational side in Berlin in Germany. Prior to that, from 2015 to 2020, you were head of the German language education department at Yad Vashem. And from 2011 to 2014, you served as the representative of Yad Vashem's educational department for German-speaking countries. You taught at the University of Vienna and published on topics of remembrance, culture, and Holocaust education in journals and anthologies. We will start now the discussion between the two of you for about 30, 35 minutes. We will then have a Q&A first with students from Indiana University who will join us on the panel. And then we will have the opportunity for those who listen and watch this webinar to put your questions. Please put your questions in the chat or the Q&A. And we go over as many as we can. Without further ado, I would like to hand over now to to Deboarh. Thank you. Well, thank you very much for the invitation and also the nice introduction. Although I'm not in Tel Aviv, I'm in Jerusalem. Alright. So I'm very much looking forward to the conversation with Karl Pfeifer. And you spoke, Günther, about your personal memories. So my personal memories of him go back to my time as a teenager because back then he was president at almost every political rally and event I attended. That was somehow dealing with issues related to antisemitism, Israel or the commemoration of the Holocaust. So two weeks ago, during the first online discussion with Karl Pfeifer, there last question from the audience who referred to antisemitism in Austria today. And you, Karl, taught the audience that the current Austrian government extraordinary proof Jewish in its policymaking. If I remember correct, you referred to the fact that they decided to cover expenses for security measures and do not support any anti-Israel motions in the United Nations, for example. And, three days ago, we just spoke about it, on Saturday, there was a rally against the government's anti-corona policy, which was organized by the right wing Austrian Freedom Party, a party that was established by, by former Nazis and in which also far-right activist and conspiracy theorists participated. The situation escalated. Some people were attacked. People shouted something like Sieg Heil, as far as I read in the offspring newspapers. So why am I, am I referring to this event? So interestingly, the conservative Austrian Chancellor, Sebastian Kurz, condemned the violence and extremist views voiced during this really. But he did not explicitly criticize the organizing Freedom Party. So this party delegated to his General Secretary into the Ministry of the Interior. And I think that this demonstrates the very ambivalent position the Conservative Party, and especially Sebastian Kurz, have vis-a-vis the openly antisemitic and racist Freedom Party. It is true that since January 2020, there for those who don't know, the Austrian People's Party leads a coalition with the Green Party. But of course, we should not forget that before that Sebastian Kurz' political ally was the Freedom Party. And during the time of this conservative right-wing government, Nearly every week, there was an antisemitic incident related to this party- Incidents which also Kurz for a long time, relativized as exceptional cases. So dear Karl, what do we make of politicians like Sebastian Kurz and his party? So of course they're present himself pro Jewish and even pro Israel. And on the other hand, they flirt with potential allies from the far-right included anti-Semitic parties or politicians like Viktor Orban, of whom I would like to talk to you later. So are those politicians using these topics for the political purposes and thereby instrumentalizing them? Or are they just opportunists? Or is it typical Austrian? Or is it really possible to collaborate with the Freedom Party and still fight antisemitism? I know it's a long question. I try to answer point-by-point. Your question, which was not a really a question made, was your opinion and beg to have to differ. First of all, I can see things. Being an old man, 92 years old. It gives me a different perspective. A different view on the development of Austrian politics. First of all, the Freedom Party is not a right-wing party. It's an extreme right-wing. That's my first observation. But the second one is that the first one to take in the Freedom Party as a coalition patent was an Austrian socialist party that happened in 1983 when after the government of Kreisky and Kreisky himself was of Jewish descent as he liked to say. He collaborated or he had some. It, he took in his first government, five former Nazis. And we had very good relations to the then president of the Freedom Party who was in Buffalo, is, of course, whenever he's unit kill Jews, she was on vacation in Vienna. But So one has to see this history and then we go to Kurz, Now, Kurz is a very capable young potentiation. And I first heard him when he was Minister of Foreign Affairs. And when he came to the Yom Ha'atzmaut, to the Israeli Independence Day, and he gave a speech without a piece of paper. And what he said was quite clear. He spoke about himself, how he was influenced. I'm a speech or by memories office or by that he had when he was a pupil. So I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. When you speaks against antis, the second thing is when he got on his Facebook antisemitic remarks, he denounced them to the police. Now, never before did an Austrian government comma the security expenses of the Jewish community? He did and his government did so now, as far as his relations to abandoned to Hungary are concerned, one has to see this situation of Austria. We have a common border with Hungary, at some, its national interest to have good relations with whatever government Hungary, as as far as what happened on such a day was that the Minister of Interior Affairs who does speech and attacked Israel and that came many, Many cause the cries from the crowd, which were absolutely anti-semitic to these courts reacted in parliament. And he did not mention FPÖ, but he doesn't have to mention, FPÖ members of parliament made all kind of cap cause and tried to interrupt him. Now, what I found, what I found disturbing that after his speech, the Socialist Party members remained calm. They did not, they did not fail. And there was no word said about this scandal, which happened on Saturday. And he says combated when a former minister of interior insights, the, the, the crowd against the government in such a fashion that it goes with violence. And he has nothing to say that violent neo-Nazis and Identitärs are present in this demonstration. So I must take the the Green spokeswoman Ms. Maurer. She said very clearly also that fascism and antisemitism is not to be accepted in our street. Okay? One can of course say, one can of course divide the world into the rights and left. Bring people at the back, conservative people. But I do not do this because my experience shows me that it is a very simplistic way to confront reality. Reality is such an atmosphere that courts can say in Parliament things against anti-Semitism. And he does not have to fair to lose people who vote for him. Susie shows you a change because when I was a young man, when I was 40 and 50, no politician would say anything in public against anti-Semitism in public when the television was on the radio, Watson, when they were in private meetings with Jews able to of course say that they are against antisemitism. Obliquely, the first wants to see something was in 2001 when the leader of the extreme right party, I tried to make an election campaign with antisemitism against, against them president of the Jewish community, Dr Muzicant. And when two persons really spoke against this, one was the socialist mayor of piano, I play that. And the second one was the President. The President of the Republic. Then, he was a green spokesmen, professor Van der Bellen. And they spoke at peak time on television against anti-Semitism. And that was for me the point when I understood that the majority of our expense or not, I did not say that they are not anti-Semites, but I say they are not for anti-semitism in politics and embed, yeah. So one has to see this development. I feel this is a very important development because things were not always the same. Okay. Okay. So maybe let's go back to the past. You expressed that since you came back in the fifties to Austria, your overall aim was to gain skills that would guarantee you a future beyond Austria. So actually you didn't want to live in Austria. And the OS said that your experiences with Austria and the Austrian Society were predominantly negative. Can you elaborate on that? And how was it to come back to Austria as a Jew in the 1950s? Maybe you can share some of your experiences with us. And you spoke already about a few developments, but what did change during the last decades? First of all, I came back, I was 23 years of him. And I was told right away that I'm not one who, I'm not one who comes home. And the Jewish community will take care of me when I came back, not a lot. The Austrian state. The second. Now I was a young man. I tried to, to go to the higher again to the places where your drink wine, you will meet the other people. And I had, I had to experience at them the next table. I know people telling jokes about Joe Age, about Jews to be guessed, y'know, just could. People would talk openly. It was not a secret. They did not make a secret of their feelings about Jews. That was a situation when I came back. I then made the Missouri. I was a student and the Austrian hotel business school two years. And then also my experience as well also very negative. Most of the teachers were former Nazis. And I was a postcard 19 and a job abroad. My first job abroad was in suites are in the Italian part of Switzerland in pidgin. I did learn Italian Bay, I did learn ocean school, but then I had a very good practice and so on and so on. Now, I must say, I came in 56. I was asked if I would like to be Secretary and Chief of reception of them five-star hotel in Vienna. And I was 28 years of age and I got the job. And they had no feelings of any anti-Semitic. There was no antisemitism, not in the hotel. And of course not from the proprietor ago was if they have a very religious Catholic woman and a woman. But the atmosphere in the country was, of course, anti-Semitic paper when loading speeches, it gets Jews about. And it was quite even, you could not, when you went into a coffee house, you did not know how your neighbor was thinking you would would be they portraits? To speak to people that I would never speak to people in the train. Probably because I never knew who is sitting next to it. I then left Austria. I left this very good job. And I met the High Commissioner for education to New Zealand in Vienna. I asked him if I could get the permit within six weeks. I on my permit and I went to New Zealand. I was two years. Which was quite an experience because this was my first Anglo-Saxon country. And it was by meeting with an absolute different culture with Anglo-Saxon culture, which impressed me. And I did learn a lot of things there. When I came back, I tried to run for a short time. I went to Israel. I had a job in our ten, but it did not turn well, it was just a season and I was unemployment again and I went back to us and I'll be different jobs. And I was always, always confronted with antisemitism. Just to give you one example, I have written about this in my book. I have told it also in the film. I guess. I was engaged to a girl, was 18 years old. And she had to have she had a form on what's it for months that her father was parents were divorced and her father was the legal or not? I don't know what a form on these, but maybe you can help us. Astoria her guardian legal right. At your father was a god. The father wasn't. It was an illegal Nazi. Ignites even who was not in the army during the war. It was in the Nazi Party active. So this 18 year old girl went to her father and ask for ask for pen. And he asked, what what does your fiance too? I was a manager, a big restaurant bowling call in Vienna and she said, What does the amounts? You say? 10 thousand. That was a lot of money. Okay. And what is religion? She said mosaic, which is in Jewish. So he said, Jewish. Jews should be killed like, like bed bugs, etc. etc. This girl came crying to me and told me this story. So I said to myself, okay, I'm going to I'm not going to leave it at that. I'm going to the quote. I'm going to go and I went into the district where I was to a judge. The judge said, Well, Mr. Pfeifer, That's okay. I have to hear the other party and coding. And this fellow was a lawyer. They took away, was not anymore a lawyer because he was in jail for six years for setting the same about mental six different persons. So and so the judge asked me how when you're born because the father said You are too old for his daughter. I said I was born in 28. Oh, that's that's good. I was born 27. That's not an argument I can as a judge, I can say but the father and said also that his daughter is not is is not same mentally not same. So I cannot I'm not a psi article. You should put the upcycled traced and they somewhat permanent that we had the pyramid I could marry. I did not match that of the story, but it shows you what was possible in Austria in the sixties. At the end of the sixties, got a very nice job. That was really the right hand of the general manager of the biggest hotel, hotel and restaurant company. That's very nice. And they're in some equity. There was election in Australia and I was confronted by the by the man who was responsible for the tapes that I had for the council of the workers. And he showed me is if flit, and this was an anti-Semitic leaflet. So I again, I had this page feeling here, I am in a country where the chief of the workers council, you can show me an anti-Semitic leaflets. What's the proof? Caucasian because ego, they, Well, I'm a Jew and I could not react really. So I went, I went to the coffee house next Saturday, looked in the Frankfurt, the Eigen magnetite, though, founded an announcement for a job. And I wrote a letter and I got the job. It wasn't an American company as development manager. And I was two years in London. And that will wander 40 years. I went everywhere, I went pups, so I went, I met people and then a devout Jew. And nobody was not forge who is tiny edge chose, they could not care less. Of course, the general manager, you will very well that I was Jewish. He could not care. He was an American. He was an American Protestant of Dutch descent. And he was a presbyter off of the judge in New York before he became General Manager there. So I had a nice GUI is and when I that was 73, the dollar crisis came, I came back to Austria. I was again confronted with anti-Semites. And this time, first of all, I was so upset that I started to write letters to the editor. And those letters, I put them now in the Facebook. And unfortunately some of them. And my first letters were against left-wing anti-Semites, which was very strong and Kreisky very strong. And I wrote against this. But I could say. At that time, the majority of Austrians were either strong anti-Semites, combined anti-Semites. And only the minority was not anti-Semitic. And this is what has changed. Now. They're probably 10 percent strong anti-Semites. And 20 percent, or 30 or 40 percent might anti-Semites. But most Austrians are not advocating or not going For anti-Semitism in politics and the media. This, you don't eat. So it was a surprise last Saturday that the minister of interior, of a former minister of interior spoke against stays where it was a complete surprise because this extreme right party tried to have good relations with Israel and with the Jews also. And they even employed a Jewish, an Austrian Jew pit as a off-screen who wasn't cameras Secretary of this extreme right party? Catriona. Yeah. I'm I'm not too sure if I share your optimism about the situation in Australia contract. Maybe we can discuss this later. And besides Austria, Austria Hungary played an important role in your personal and professional life. And actually you became a journalist because of Hungary when you were reporting about the political opposition against the communist regime. So how did you experience this time? And what role did anti-Semitism play back then and now the situation in Hungary differ from, from that in Austria, for example. First of all, when I went in, in the seventies, when I went to Hungary, I had the feeling that antisemitism is different from Austria because it was not fashionable in intellectual circles at that time. Even to say the word Jew, that was not done. So I had the wrong impression that anti-Semites somehow is not really very strong. But it was there when the communists did not. How can I say this? One could make a career as a Jew in the communist regime. But usually the Jews, when I'm not in the front line, let's say a Jew was a capability in, let's say the hotel business, then he was not the general manager, was an assistant general minute in business was the same. But One thing was very interesting when I met these people from the, from the political opposition, they asked me if I want to meet the former Prime Minister of Hungary who caught in the Red Army and foot in 56. I said yes, of course I want to eat him. And I was taken to a flat. There were about 30 Hungarian intellectuals. Most of them had already a few gasps of y. And by two of my friends, I was introduced in Hungarian to the prion, to the former Prime Minister. And they said Mrs. announcement came from piano, is interested in Hungarian matters. And his name is FIFO. And Hegel, who was his name started in very bad Germans. To explain me the difference between Germans and Austrians. And immediately they are very nice people. But the Germans are the Basland. So this line, I did not live because I was certificate in Austria and high remember what the Austrians did? And so I said to him in Hungarian, listen, you don't have to speak. He spoke of a bad German. To speak with me German. This sudden no fungi again, Jewish bands, you can speak with a Hungarian. And he just turned and he left me. So, and I told this also, those filmmakers. And the filmmakers wanted this in the film. And I say, No, don't put it in the film because people will believe that having a dish was an anti-Semite. No, it was not. But at this time, that was 709. It was not customer in good searchers in Hungary to say the word Jew. He was shocked. I did something which no Hungarian Jew would ever do then no Hungarian Jew was sane in this ad would say, I'm a Jew, you know. Okay. If you get an a for me, yeah, I got an answer. I am. But so how come that the, I mean, many of the Hungarian dissidents came from Jewish background or headed your background where survivors or the parents were survivors. Depth, they're still there. They're Jewish experience or Jewish identity that this contribute to their decision joining the Hungarian opposition? What would you say? The contrary? I would say yes, there was one case, one friend of mine who had a clear Jewish conscience, and he was in jail because of Zionism. 73 during the Yom Kippur War. They got the sentence and it was, and when he came to the jail, the man who the police man who took him there said to him, Well, what she said to him. Why are you doing this when you're rule in this country, you juice, you know, crazy. Now, most Jews who were in the democratic opposition did not feel as Jews felt as gay. And, and, and I remember one of my friends in the Hungarian opposition. He died in the meantime, a non-dual intent that said to me, Carl, don't see UI, UX, UI Hungarian. You speak like us. You think like us. You are a Hungarian. But I sit, let, let myself, let me give me the possibility to give a definition of myself. I know somehow, but most of them it probably did influence them. But, and some of them veces son or the daughters of Communist, of big companies, also of Jews and non-Jews. In the political opposition. It was clear to me that this system has no future. Why? Because I knew the economic situation of anger, it was disastrous. So it was a great advantage for me to speak and to speak and to read Hungarian. Because most journalists would come to Hungary and they would need a trend data. And I could go with one of my friend. I went to a light to place. The working men were drinking a glass of wine. Usually it was in the cell, no. One was in a big container now. And the fellow who just took you, you put your money on the table there. Would it would give you a glass to one deci or two to t of y. And you would just stand there. It was standing. You could not sit and drink a glass of wine and listen to what the working man were talking. And I had wonderful stories I heard there and I could impact to the NBA. I, I was never a need of stories because I heard stories that a foreigner neighborhood here because he was always with translators and he had never had what people really said and how people really full, you know. So and also my background that I was four years in Diageo and school. And I understood that also the cultural aspect conduct people are helped me greatly to write about hunger. Now what happened was they could sink happen. My articles were translated into, into my articles published in German, translated into Hungarian, and Radio Free Europe would broadcast them to Hungary. And I will not get a penny. And when I met first time, the fellow from Free world in piano. I told him our cups. I don't get the penny. You translate my stories and 1 million now Pangaea and hear my story. I say No, no, no, you're, from now on you will get, you will get this how it was. But of course, the Communist pair, not the government or the, let's say, the political police was not very happy with me. And the apple was expelled four times from Hungary. I believe no other for a newspaper man was expelled so many times. They didn't hate me because in my case, they could not see I'm a right-wing. I'm an old fascist. And I did not write only about freedom, about questions of, of human rights, but also about, about questions they didn't like to read about it. For instance, I'm very proud in my first article, I wrote about the discrimination against Gypsies, against Rome people. One thing I wrote about the condition of working men and working woman. I wrote about the condition a moment. So you can imagine that they did not like me. Later on. I wrote also about the conditions of Catholic pacifists who have put to jail because they were not ready to take to go to the army. So I had quite a few stories to tell about Hungary. Okay, and maybe one last question before the audience will have the opportunity to ask as well. So talking about Hungary today, can one say that Viktor Orban and his party have an anti-Semitic agenda? Is it a programmatic part of their policy? And maybe what's the situation of the Jewish community in Hungary today? At the Jewish community in Vienna, in Austria, for example, is very weird. Day speak out openly against anti-Semitism. What's the situation in Hungary? First of all, it's not the program miotic think antisemitism is used by the government. For instance, the insight I Haroche against the Jewish media there, who comes from Hungary originally and went to America and became the manager of Fund and became a real, he is one of a very rich person. But instead of investing his money in, in, in, in, in, in the pleasant life where he has a pleasant life I guess. But he invested his money in human rights. For instance, we have the Hungarian opposition and and All ban and his ilk. They put up posters against Schorsch. But of course it is a C. If you confront them, they say, Well, it's not about being Jewish. We don't and can't say. Prime Minister Netanyahu is coded in his Israeli Ambassador in Budapest because he protested against these posters. To Prime Minister Netanyahu, was of the opinion that it's okay to put on a Jew on a big poster. And to, and to say that he is a course for mass emigration to Hungary easily, basic, easy cause for everything which is bad, you know. So this is one side of a and of hunger and the reality is the other side is quite interesting. When you say something about this anti-Semitism in Hungary, the official Hungarians will answer you and will tell you, Look, we have no, we have not had one case where a Jew was attacked or murdered in Hungary, while in democratic France, so many Jews were murdered. Murder ban Muslims. So this is how they argue. So this is a very, and you cannot say that this is not because it's now about the Jewish community. The Jewish community. First of all, the question is, how many Jews I, hungry? When you bend, you read what newspaper man, who can come back from a right there, right about a 100 thousand, about a 150 thousand joules. This is not true in Hungary, in the biggest Jewish Committee that are less than 10 thousand members in the habit community, which is a separate command. Maybe three thousand, five hundred, thousand, eight hundred. And the rest are not organized in a Jewish community to qualify to go to Israel because one of their grandparents have been Jewish, probably the 800000. But one cannot know because this isn't not trenches 30 nanometre. So you have a VAE. So the biggest, the bigger Jewish community is protesting against anti-Semitism. Magee, protesting about community is enjoying a full protection of Oba. They get more money than the, than the bigger. So this is also a politics of impair a Db, Db death impair the value of division. Y'know, you said something about there being a Jewish Committee. One thing is sure In Vietnam we have a United. Everyone is inside. People who don't believe left-wing, right-wing us. Khabbab is not in a separate company, but they are separate. They don't take money from the community. I guess. I don't know. I'm not so much involved in this community baseless. Or I thank you so much for this really interesting conversation. We go now to the second part. So we invite now students here from Indiana University to come to the panel. I see now Andrea and Annabel, I think they are inviting the students to the parallel, so we will see them here on the screen. And hopefully they can then make themselves visible and ask questions directly. So I see already a number of students coming up here. I think neither. You have an interesting question. If I remember correctly. If you are, if you can unmute yourself and make yourself visible and ask your question maybe directly to to Cal while the others then join us already. Yeah. Sorry. I'm just looking for my cautionary character number. Okay. Hello. My question was on I was curious how it felt. After all those years when he had to explain outages did not declare war on Germany in 1933. Other than that, the group project. So I was interested to hear if that was here and averaging the water. Well, thank you for the question. As a matter of fact, I have written in the last year when I was before I went into retirement, I have written a view, the NOE of the Freedom Party. And there I've criticised Professor of Political Science and Austrian who was teaching Political Science in Germany. And he sued me for deformation. And in the Greek it was written, the Jews have declared war on Germany in 9800. Why? Because in Daily Express, British bank way it was cool that it was a big title, Judeo-Arabic as war on Germany. Of course, this is, this was the argument of neo-Nazis. And the judge should not have sent me such a rate, but he sent it. And several years I was standing in in as an accused in Austrian quote, I was, I was not convicted. And five years later, after the publishing of my tipping, the Austrian Vienna General Attorney accused him. Of transgressing Austrian law against nationalist socialism. Committee was, it was supposed to stand trial in Vienna. He committed a few weeks before that suicide. And I was accused in a weekly near to the Freedom Party that the Jewish Germans cowed FIFA, I pushed him into his side. So this time I was doing the paper and the editor. And I must say I lost my case into upper court decision in one, Caught in the first one, a woman was presiding the court session and she was what I was showing care finger. And saying you, Mr. 55 responsible, that you Arctic is responsive to the Social Democrats and the greens. F released, released mister so and so from his job. And I lost my case. And I went as as Dr. Kelly said, I went to the European human rights course and my case against Republic of Austria. If I was hurt, I must say from the first minute when I got this, I was decided to fight it. You are now fight it out. Because I have written about this fellow. I said he lied. And my lawyer said, you cannot see in Austria, you cannot see the fellow lied because you have to see he said The untruth. But till high, that is not possible and I we have to make a compromise on that. But I said no, no, we are not making a compromise. I will prove I will give evidence. He lied and it I succeeded in quote, to show that he really he really light. And so in the first three cases, I was, I was not condemn. But then I lost my case against this paper, against this editor. And I won the case of PAS against the Austrians justice. It took all this talk from, it started in 1995 and it ended with the with the human court decision of 2007. So it was 12 years. Okay. And probably present. And those who watch me is tossed and show its Lundbeck, a German. A good friend of mine, who was at the time the chief of the Students Union at the college in Winchester, where this fellow will my criticised was teaching political science. And I must say those who were really solidarity with me. Whereas this to his students, inmates, the Germans students, we said, Ooh, did not want it to have a teacher who was a racist and an anti-Semite. Okay. Is it a question answer. Anna? Can you unmute yourself? What allow time writing on hungry? Did you ever feel like you will endanger palliation? Found the data? Well, you see when I plus first time expelled, I think happened. I was I went with it by train, first-class on the 15th of August, which is a national holiday Inn in Austria. I went to Hungary and a woman who was a who was a customs officer came. I asked mean German, normal German. Have you anything to declare? I said no. And then she started to cry at me in Hungarian. Tamagotchi. You speak I'm gay. And I said yes. So she said, I'm going now to look thoroughly through your suitcase and she found it my suitcase. 30 copies of an article about the Gulag in, in, in its Soviet Union. And it was an experience of a Yugoslav communist who was 30 is in the Gulag. So she said to me, I'm going to take away this debt. I told you a lot to say this is, this is a Yugoslav paper. They had quite a discussion app is quite cheeky. And I was taking, my passport was taken from me. I was taken down from the railway station and put into the customs office. And after a few hours, soldier came to, two soldiers came to take me to them, to Buddhist soldiers came to take me to the police, the office at the railway station. And then I was stored. I have to go back with this one. I I was I was sitting down next to the compartment where those who took me to the border, they're sitting and there was a big burly fellow about to make a high big, fat book. And when I want you to go to the toilet, the door, the train went with 90 kilometer now, and the door was widely open. And this fellow stood up. And I had a quick perhaps apec. Next, my neighbor and the compartment was an American tourist. I tried to explain to him and he saw them and Batman, I'm just I I suffer paranoia. It did not believe me. But then I said to him, Look, you believe or not believe, come and come with me to the and watch the door while I'm at the toilet. And you did it and then everything was okay. That was the first time. What's the Hungarians would say to me what they told me. Next time. When they let me in. Austrian diplomats arrange for me void. And I had to go to the Hungarian embassy to the console and get a visa despite the fact that the Austrian did not need anymore Bs. And then they asked the Hungarian cancer septum. It is the FIFA, is it worth to, to, to what? Why do you do this? Why do you fight a state? Hungary, I said, I think this is fighting be what is, what was very good for me to know after many years. And I knew it from the papers of the Hungarian secret police that american Journalists Yuanyuan, his protested against my, my being kicked out of Hungary. So there was a solidarity. And when I was third time, that was 86 when I was expelled, clinic time, peak. The fats from Frankfurt Eigen minutes at night church are tied to some Austrian papers, have published the story on the front foot, the alga manual, the first page that I was kicked out. So in reality, it helped me because because of course as a journalist, See if he's expelled from a country beads that he's writing taproot, which I did. Okay. All right. Thank you. Count Nicholas had also a question. I see. Can you unmute yourself? Yes. Can you hear me? Yeah. So my question was, it seems like throughout your whole life, you've been pretty active and done pretty much nothing about advocate for yourself and others. Even now you continue to travel around the world and visit places like us entire story. So what, what is it that drives you and motivates you to continue to do that today? What is driving me? Like? What is it that motivates you? Motivating? Well, I could see I'm a fight for democracy and for human rights. I could say this but I don't. It's also probably my character. You know, I'm I like this question. I like, I like people who are of a different opinion. So this is motivating me. Probably more than anything, is 0. And of course, I have a wonderful wife. A German, both distant. Womb too, is living with midi and who is giving me courage to do what I'm doing. And I'm an age, 3132 years now, 22 years in September we are marriage 32 years. We made a few few we made on the 30th of September that a 9800 809 I Tokyo out of Germany of Eastern Germany on the 29th of October of that year. And a few days later the war was crumbling down. So what I'm saying, I took out the last stone from the building of the German Democratic Republic and the whole building tumbled down. Oh, that's fun. So I would say, yes. What is motivating be more than a zinc is curiosity. You know, if you are not curious, you're not a journalist. Research and answer to your question. Yes. Thank you very much. Okay. Don't be shy. Ask questions, Abigail, and maybe a few years ahead, it will not be possible. I will not be here. So ask questions. If I'm sorry about one thing in my life, I had a brother was 15 years older than me, and I did not ask questions because I was afraid. If I ask questions, then he will think I'm thinking he was already way. It was ill and he would sing. I'm I'm I'm asking the question because I know. Because I see how how how LEAs and and that he will he will die. So I did not ask the questions. And until, you know, there are so many things I think and I don't know because nobody can answer my questions. And I always say my family, my big part of my family live in Israel. I SIT ask questions because when I'm done I'm not anymore. Yeah. Nobody will answer those questions. So please ask. Hi. I wanted to ask as curious as to why hear suggestions are for young people today and combating antisemitism? Well, I tell you a joke, you know. No, I don't tell you a joke. I just tell you. I would have told you the joke about the Jews are guilty of every sick. And then a fellow says, here's the Jews. The Jews are guilty. Know, the bicycle riders are guilty. The federal ask why the bicycle riders. Concept of why the Jews. Now, of course, this one should not confound racism and antisemitism. Antisemitism is a very old thing, exists more than 2000 years. And there is one American professor who wrote a wonderful book about it. David knee and bad guy recommend his book. Where he showed up that even without Jews, like in Spain where they're centuries, there were no Jews. The intellectuals were accusing each other of Judaizing. So I guess I tell you another joke which was, which was an Israeli joke, Really. An Israeli emissary went to the, to the States, to the United States to speak in Jewish communities and to collect money for the wrist. And he described the situation in Israel, there's wonderful. And he said one thing is wonderful in his, well, there is no anti-Semites. So then he ask any questions. And one member of the committee put up his hand and said, Yes, I have a question. If to do is meet, what are they talking about? If there is no anti-Semites? So it is a feeling. And this has changed. It was a feeling. And this is also the difference between Austria and between hot and these are very important defense. If in Austria most of those people will fight it Austria against anti-semitism, ofcourse non-Jews. There is, the more, the more than 8 million last winds. And the Jewish community has probably has 7,500 members and probably 5000 the others are not registered. So you can imagine most of those who speak out against that, this is a nodules. In Hungary. If a non-Jewish speaking out against anti-Semitism, It will be asked, do we have a Jewish mother, a Jewish father, a Jewish grandfather? They cannot imagine that somebody who is not a Jew with pick out against anti-Semites, that's a big difference. Now, what should be done and what can be done. I think the most important thing is to try to see behind the mask of those who say, I'm not against. Not against the Jews, but and then to ask if you are not against the Jews, why? But so today, and this is a great difference. When I was a child and when I came back, even people were openly anti-Semitic. Now nobody wants to be a, nobody wants to be empty, simply wants to be called an anti-Semite. Is the difference. But antisemitism, of course it exists. But unfortunately in Australia doesn't exist in the university in America. I read now the papers. It's very popular in some universities. And of course there you have this crazy idea that because you are, why you have to excuse yourself. This is choppy. You see, I am as a Jew. I could say, I never would say to a German, to any young girl. And what would one, you'll have to excuse yourself for what, you know. At a young German is not responsible for that what happened in the Nazi time. But of course he's responsible for what happens now. And this is what I said to the students image. When I spoke to them, they say, look, I'm not because people introduced me, I'm Mr. Bye-bye said, Look, don't be afraid. I'm not going to put my finger and say, you know, I only say we all are responsible for what is happening. No. Thank you. Can't what is, what is your advice to young people who want to do something about anti-Semitism. What's your advice to them? And then we get to the list of all is to learn about, about the, what is anti-ship. And there is a great help today is this is a I, a, I, a definition of anti-semites. That's a great head because before that it was very difficult. Now there is a good definition. That's one thing. The second thing is, I had many times, I wrote for an anti-fascist British monthly for, for some years. And then I spoke to my editor, my British non-Jewish editor, about antisemitism in the left. And he told me, Karl, don't, don't see such six. An anti-Semite cannot be a left wing and the left when that cannot be an anti-Semite. But of course we know better. We know the story. How in the Soviet Union, what kind of anti-Semitism was rampant? How they killed the best Jewish writers in the 50, in the early fifties. And then we know what happened in this landscape trial in chose Slovakia went from the first batch of 14. People were condemned to death. 11 where Jews, and they are at the end. They would say that the Attorney General in Prague set about landscape, was head of this bunch. He said, Here's a typical cosmopolitan phase. What effect? It's because he did not wanted to say a Jewish place. So yes, it is. It is this, this, I don't, I think yes, there is a modem is a modern anti-Semites. And Madame anti-Semite does not say that he is an anti-Semite. He's only against Israel, is only. He starts saying, well, one can criticize this country. And of course can, one can criticize Israel. There is no other country in the world where people criticize so much their government, then it is red. But the question is, why is rank reduce that? Why not Belgium criticism? Why not speaking about Austrian criticism? Why not speaking about C and criticism where there are more than 1 million dead and millions of refugees. Why not? So? And another thing which about antisemitism, you know, there is this movement BDS, about boycotting Israel. And nowadays, I read an article in the French paper about the situation of the requests in China. More than 1 million I'm in camps where they had to work. And they are under pressure to assimilate to the Chinese. And of course, and to, and to have they made them eat pork and drink alcohol. So there are those people who are fighting, who are feeling that in Israel there's such a big operation. But Israel is a democratic state. And there is, of course, no such oppression. That can be a human rights violation also by the Israelis. Now human beings, but nothing to compare with China and with the oligos. While Muslim, I never had those people who speak so much about this read, speak about what happens to the bread brothers and sisters in China. Why not? Thank you. Can I think this answers one of the questions already in the Q and a about and design is, is that a form of antisemitism? But Michael Trajan, Here's another question about comparing the situation, the perception of Jews among the population in Austria, Poland, and Hungary. So you talked knowing what the situation of the Jews. Now know how, how, if you want, how this perceptions of two, so anti-semitism in Hungary, Poland, and Austria. I think you talked about this already a bit. Maybe you want to summarize. So look, what is optimal learned about Poland. I'm not, I'm not qualified to talk about Poland. I can talk about Hungary. Hungary. In Hungary, about more than a 100 thousand Jews survived in Budapest. Now, during the communist time, and that was about 40. People did not speak about, as I said, they were not speaking about being Jewish. They sought if they don't speak to their children and everything will base on the tooth. What came out after 40 years of communism was that Hungarian society exactly knew who is Jewish always of Jewish descent. It came out after 40 years of communism. That was a very rampant anti-Semitism. Suddenly, when communism was not anymore there, that was 90 already. There were anti-Semitic demonstrations in Budapest. As far as Austria is concerned. I have the feeling. First of all, add the feeling. Things have changed in Austria. When Carl Schorske, an American scientist, wrote his book about families shaky in Vienna. And from that moment on, in Austria, elite started to think about that one can make money of the dead Jews, of what the Jews contributed to Austrian culture. And of course, the 5'-end ACA was almost all the, except maybe music and maybe painters. But writers, psychoanalysts and add that settler, that was very much the equation of Jews. And, and so they started to think about how it was always in Austria. I heard many times what the Jews contributed to aspirin cut. And even I gave want to talk in a left-wing club. And about the question was, what, what is antisemitism? And I gave a talk which lasted exactly six minutes. I explained at that time what is anti-Semites. And then any Ronnie student got out. He spoke German, German but with a strong accent and said the following. The problem with the Jews in Austria and the problem with the, with the Jews in Palestine. Well, yes, the problem with the Jews in Palestine is that they are Austrians. And. Problem with Mr. typeface that these peaks like a, a, a small Bourgeois from about, I'd say a Catholic sport, bourgeois. So my answer was, of course I speak like a small Bourgeois from say like a coupling because some of my best friends are catabolic. And they did not love they did not understand my point of view. And then got up and asked him and said the following. He started to say what us, what the 2s contribute to Austrian culture. And I pounded on the table, I was so angry. And I pounded on the table and I said, Look, Austrian culture was not a spike and it was not Fried. Who never, but the professorship in ever was a professor my mouse there. And it was not. It was Hitler, Moroni, et cetera. And I gave fuel. And my wife said, you don't, you will not anymore discuss with left-wing people, you know. So yeah, Carter, we will have to come to an end soon. But there are two questions I think we can, because I can have them because some of the students, they have to look out and go to the next class. Yes. But so these two questions, they relate to minorities. So one of the question is, are there, is that relation ship between Jewish communities and Roma people in Hungary and Austria. And the other question is, so maybe you can tag them in a way, well, a bit different. And the other question is, how do you assess Muslim antisemitism and Austria? So that was recently this attack in Vienna by an Islamist in November. Is that, is, is that something that you see more often more from happening? House a threat also from from Islamist movements in Vienna today are, these are two different questions. The first one is very short. Yes. There is a good connection between the communities in Hungary and also in Austria? Yes. And there is also an interesting, you did not ask, but I'm going to tell you the Turkish community and in Turkish non-religious culture and community. And we have excellent, excellent relations. A Jewish Committee with this Turkish culture community, the ulama villages. Now, with the Muslims, we have a problem. We have the problem that the legal organizations they try to, they try the last years to say we are all human beings. And at the cemeteries and Islamophobia are should be rejected and, and some Jews fell for it, especially left-wing. I did never fall for this because I know what kind of what happens in, in, in, in, in the Muslim community. I speak about the religious Muslims. And they're antisemitism is quite strong. And by the way, this Austrian government has also created an Institute for research of political Islam. So they're also, one of the questions is, is Andy assume in the Muslim community? But on the other hand, one is to say, most of those Muslims who live in Austria, the not interested in having conflicts with which we do wish to have an open conflict with the Jewish community on the company. They, they want to be good friends. Why? Also? Because they have a common slaughterhouse. Jews and Muslims at the same metadata, slaughtering animals. Show and this is absolutely an order. Okay. It was very short my answer, but I guess it's a time. Yes. Thank you so much, cow. And thank you, of course also the poorer. If you want to have also final, something to say. If you want to have some final words, Deborah. Okay. Otherwise, we would just take this opportunity to thank all of you to have, first of all, to greet doing this than doing this in English. Because I mean all the panelist, rather very fluent in of course, in German, either from Australia or from Germany. And but you kept it well to English. There was only one word that we were looking for that yet we solve it. The Guardian, right? The legal guardian. But really thank you so much. Thank you. Also, the students, of course, who ask the questions and the listeners who were also patient and asking questions on the chat. And in the Q&A, I think Deborah and Karl will be happy to answer questions if you send them an e-mail. Deborah Hartmann is, as you know, the director of the House of the Wannsee Conference. So they have a big educational department, I guess. So you can answer. You can also send questions there. And Karl Pfeifer, if you if you have a question for him, you can write an email to me or to in the follow-up e-mail, I think then we will forward this question and then Karl Pfeifer can come back to you. Thank you so much everyone. And I will hand over now to Andrea to do the final goodbye and thank you message that we have at the end. Thank you. Thank you so much dear Karl, it was a great pleasure to meet you this way. Twice. And Debbie: vielen vielen Dank auch an Sie. Thank you to all our viewers and listeners. We hope to see you again or an event that can tear and colleagues. Um, yeah, enjoy playing. And please get in touch if you have any questions. And to Karl Pfeifer or Debbie Hartmann and we will forward it to them. Okay. Great, a great evening. Bye-bye. Thank you. Thank all. My dear friends. Bye.
This series of conversations focused on international inequities and was centered on the United Nations' 10th Sustainable Development Goal: to reduce inequality within and among countries. Among the issues discussed were access to health care in Kenya and Mexico, migration and the urban/rural divide in China, and the challenges posed by resistance to state law and authority on religious grounds. The series was kicked off with a conversation with Pulitzer Prize-winning author Isabel Wilkerson on "Race, Caste and Inequality" and a student-led discussion following the event.
Description of the video:Good morning, everyone or good afternoon as the case, maybe one to welcome you all to our, our third entry in our toward a just society webinar series. This is a webinar series looking at globally qualities and issues of justice around the world. And sponsored by the Office of the Vice President for International Affairs at Indiana University and our Global Gateway series. My name is Tim. Hello, I'm Academic Director of the IU Europe gateway in Berlin. I want to thank all those who helped make this possible from our gateway network on throughout a more undergo Church, pretty harsh. Or Ali, about 100 bucks, former Vice President. I'm very excited today to be collaborating with. I use Center for Religion and the human. They, they do great work and they're very vibrant community. And today our webinar is going to be on religion without the state on issues of Canada, liberal religion will lead to justice. A very interesting topic. And I'm going to turn over 2. The moderator for today's webinar. This is constants jury is chair of the Religious Studies at IU Bloomington. And constants take it away. Wonderful. Thanks Tim. Thanks. Under F of the all the organization and excited. I'm really excited to be part of this panel which began, is a continuation of conversations among various of these panelists in different contexts. And as Tim said, we'll be talking about this question of the challenges posed by illiberal religion to the liberal state. So resistance to state law based in authority grounded in religious claims, what might be called Divine disobedience is a diverse and nuanced phenomenon, one that occurs across the political spectrum from right to left. What new forms of social covenants and communities do these movements contribute to Imagining Justice? In which cases does the discourse of divine disobedience lead to new community formation? Sorts of community formation would we imagine, would want to imagine, are these groups imagining? In what ways do they embody new possibilities for creating common ground? So our speakers, I'll mentioned the names, all four names add that you've seen them, of course, on the publicity. And then I will do introductions. After each talk. We'll keep it short. Each speaker is doing about an eight-minute presentation in order to create time for conversation among them, but especially we hope for questions from the audience as well. So please feel free to put your questions in the Q and a, and there should be time for a lively discussion. Our panelists are Carlos Enrique, not EMI Su CHI, Spencer do, and Jake camera and Carter and the order in which they'll be presenting. So I'll start by introducing Carlos Enrique, who is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the University tidiness on Nace. Professor I'm Enrique is written on the role of philosophy in the midst of conflict and how aesthetic practices and collective actions contribute to the creation of political subjects. Today who will be speaking on a case study from 2017, a civic strike on Columbia's Pacific Coast where catholic collective action enacted a relationship to time. Fatima, a memory palace counteracts the liberal states linear sense, progress. Hi class. This is hi, constants. Thank you very much. I am very, very happy and grateful to be participating in this conversation. Only in, uh, people were, got leaps, miraculous time, and spacial politics in a popular uprising in Colombia. Specific literal is the title of my talk. For many columbus of my generation. September 26 of 2000. 16 was one of the most hopeful days in our lifetimes. After one, after four years of negotiations, a peace agreement was signed between the government and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia. The largest and oldest insurgency in Latin America's history. More than 50 years of war appeared to come to an end. This peace process, good place to a time of promise. A sense that there was an opening for structural transformations that move the country towards more egalitarian and just collected forms of government and life. The promise that life among us could be otherwise, but also that the agents so please change could be other ones too. Not just the start to school elites and their technocratic forms of government, but that social grassroots, grassroots movements gaining space and BCP, the public debates, could also have a say that they had never had before inflecting the country's destiny. But in historical events like this one, it is difficult to differentiate the time of promise from the time of victory. And the scene of the signature of the peace agreement was the scene of triumph. These temporality of victory in the widely televised spectacle of peacemaking was only counteract it in a poignant point and yet subtle way by the religious actor in the state. The choir of women singers allow RS of bowhead. Yeah, a small town in the Pacific region of Columbia that suffered in 2000 to one of the most horrific events in the history of this war. The explosion of a bomb inside the local church, where villagers were protecting themselves from crossfire. The Choir perform the traditional genre of the rhythmic spirituality rooted in the Pacific region of Columbia. They allow a funeral chants that breaches the distance between the world of the dead and the world of the living. The chant is a mixture of an ancestral retro, practice of the Afro Columbia communities and Catholic motifs. A mixture that speaks of the affective bonds cultivated between church and people in this region of Colombia. Due to the militant pastoral work on the side of the communities and their struggles, which has characterized the Merced Catholicism cultivated here for decades in the inputs of Vatican Council. In the acquires performance, the woman rejoice, praise, praise, pray, be nouns, demand justice. But most remarkably, by the end of their act. Contest the experience of the time of peace-building that the event itself tended to impose. This was not a time of victory. They sang by the time of trace and prayer. This was not a time of a linear progress that leaves behind an obscure past, but a time of prophetic denunciation and caution. This was not a time subjected to the state's sovereign gaze. But at time in tempted to the peak teams, in morning, they sign. I find the subtle yet forceful dispute over the experience of the time of peace-building performed by the allowed us in the ceremony. A key to think how such a dispute is also integral to social movements that have emerged in the post agreement era as alternative collective agents of peace-building prompted people within political power from the bottom up and in tune with the singularity of the territory's they inhabit. In my current research, I study one of these movements were now in today's civic strike. When I tutor is the main city port of the Pacific region of Columbia. The region where the woman of these choir also come from and write their shares in the social, cultural, and spiritual atmosphere that mergers their voice. The participants, the participants of the civic strike movement, can see if the political process as taking place in a miraculous time. One that contrasts with but does not necessarily exclude the project oriented and linear temporality of state governance. To give just one example of this in his competitor speech, Victor, be dull. And i, for Colombian leader, elected Major or whenever you to rank 2009, CPI, gives a theological political account of the events. Let him to be standing there. It is only the people who got leaves. He says that two extraordinary events took place. First, that 2017 civic strike that. Parallelize the CT for 20 days in a bottom-up induced state of exception with massive and enthusiastic social protists. And then two years after that, the election of one of the movement's leaders, Victor himself as the CPS major. He's words speak of a tense grassroots Oregon, of a tense political theology embedded in a process of grassroots organizing. They speak also to the key role played by the leadership of the local Catholic church in this process. This influence is perceived most starkly in their religious sentiment of the people up when I'm in 2D, which has a distinctive history dating back to pastoral practices in the 60s, 1960s, practices of church immersion with the people in their struggles that have permeated profoundly their spectral memory, as seen in murals like these, one pound in some of its parishes. Depicting the peaker be shook head are the wireless Chicago whose legacy as left profound, effective and political traces in the CPS landscape. Can one think through the miraculous time, this miraculous time of your pricing and the political process, and it's a spatial traces. How does it reflect the promise of peace? Which in the context of Columbia's historical juncture, the promise of peace. Whereas the case of the liberal state deploys a temporality of peace-building as the progress like overcoming of war by piece. The perspective of the social movements, bottom-up, peace-building practice, on the other hand, is that of constant friction among the persistence of new forms of war. And that transformative political work on the ground. That implies increasing cohesion, organizing capacity, and political incidents on the part of marginalized communities. The tragic expression of disentanglement is the systematic assassination of social leaders. Local political processes such as these will become a threat to the dynamics generated by leashed analysts dichotomies and their forms of macro politics. Precisely because of their growing maturity and reach. Latin American feminist thinker lead that say got two, has shown how these new forms of warfare have complex articulations with transnational capitals and new forms of legal and illegal corporations, military, economic, religious. She proposes a politics in a feminine key to resist the patriarchal, racist and capitalist structures and leashed in these new forms of warfare, where the boundary between legal and illegal violence tends to be erased. Another politics which emphasizes a spatial embeddedness over the topic, protection of the state's case. Even if, say, God doesn't elaborate on her work on the religious dimension of this politics. The testimony soap when I went to this emancipatory experienced, evoke a spatial experience of the Debye. I got that leafs with a people in a place. Latin in the materiality of buildings and things and the promise of justice that these spatial density atmosphere shelters. Perhaps these spatial rather than who topic. Politics may allow us to conceive the time of peace-building beyond an economy of victory and defeat, which is none other than the economy that binds together, sacrifice and salvation. Thank you very much for your attention. Thank us much to think about. We turn NADPH as an iMSA key with a tenured research phallus. As a member of CRISPR. Author Islam and American Religion, published in French in 2013 and by Columbia University Press in 2017. Other recent works include and at a co-edited volume that seems relevant to our topic here today, saving the people, how populous hijacked religion. Today she will speak, I'm prophetic anti pastoralism, the case of the Poor People's Campaign and considering specifically its emphasis on moral revival and fusion politics. Professor Mizuki, thank you so much. Constance, thanks to my colleagues and friends today and thanks for January university for organizing this panel, I want to suggest a few, a few remarks based on my field work on the Poor People's Campaign and national call for more revival. That is, campaign launched in 2016 by Reverend Barber. Reverent fear Harris. Reverent fear Harris is a Presbyterian pastor, ordain the poverty initiative in, at the chiral center for religious rights and social justice in New York. And reverend barber is the pastor of disciple of Christ, Christ quantitive Christian church and goals for North Carolina. They launch this movement in 2016 and in order to reenact the 960, a Poor People's Campaign imagined by Martin Luther King before his assassination and then carried on by his allies and friends through the summer of 68 in order to advocate and campaign for social justice, racial justice against poverty and systemic, systemic racism. The official launch of this movement builds on the work of the two, the two pastures that the lead this movement. And it's a very heterogenous, hybrid, complex object that weaves together multiple legacies and multiple geographies of activities, multiple genealogies from Black Prophetic politics too, I protest and social gospel and international women's rates. It brings together multiple networks and activist strategies from civil rights, civil disobedience to homeless unions, advocacy and church occupation. And it merges multiple geographies of activism from Philadelphia and New York, anti-poverty activism to North Carolina civil rights struggle and true South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Complex type of campaign and movement that that seeks multiple goals at the same time, from healthcare to minimum wage to voter registration has been the topic of much media attention in the past years, especially under the Trump era. Barber has been presented as the sort of like new hero of the so-called religious left. A label that I dislike for reasons I can explain later. The campaign has also triggered a lot of questions and criticisms. Most of the criticisms around the campaign are around the fact that it's strategy is to Scatchard, that it seeks to many goals at the same time to be really efficient and that it's six so many things that in the end it achieves nothing. Another line of critique is around the lack of grassroots anchoring. And the fact that despite the claim of the campaign to encourage Grassroots Leadership and grassroots participation, it is very much still a sort of traditional patriarchal cleric lead kind of top-down movement. So I, while I'm very aware of all these critiques that I hear again and again during my research. I want to think bus these critiques and try to understand the specific interventions of the campaign in their own terms, rather than evaluating them against the standards of what a social movement is supposed to be. And through this work, I want to pose the question of whether there is still a space for the prophetic in today's contemporary politics and liberal societies. I read the PPC contribution as a work of more risk signification of American Christianity and as an experiment in ironic prophecy that challenges the store forms of power. I want to look specifically at two points that are, I think are key in understanding the originality of the work of the PPC. One is work of risk signifying Christian nationalism. The other is a work around this notion of fusion politics. Politics. A major goal of the campaign is to shift the narrative around the place of Christianity in the public sphere and to read, signify to save American Christianity that, according to Barbara, has been hijacked by Christian nationalism. In that respect, the campaign very much belongs to this tradition. For this American tradition of, of exegetical, barber describe Tim's half as an American evangelical, a fundamentalism who goes to the scriptures to advocate for social justice. So to that extent, the campaign very much is inscribed in this broader movement of reclaiming Christianity that is situating within the narrative of American and Christian exceptionalism. Because what's at stake is to save America, to save Christianity, to redeem it from its hijackers. But what I find more interesting is that there is also a critique of that very tradition from Hadoop, a double standpoint, the standpoint of theoretical reflection on the limits of Euro centered legacy of strong Christian theologians. And a practical standpoint through this concept of fusion politics, barbers, memoir and ratings reveal a very important journey away from some foundational Christian theologians through a questioning. The limits of their contribution to social and racial justice. In the third reconstruction. A book he published in 2016, he admits that scholars like me, we're in spidery, inspired his thinking. But he also quickly came to question the narrow understanding of action enabled by people like nib or in terms of success or failure. Likewise, drawing upon theologians Stanley harvest, he also acknowledges the key role of the church community is witnessing, but he immediately emphasizes the need to go beyond this understanding of the church. Speaking of his experience with Greenleaf church in North Carolina, reverend Barber calls for elaborating a new imagination that is not restricted to the norms of white Western Christianity. He says, I quote, as much as, sorry. He says, I quote, I appreciate the longing for an alternative sociological reality. Words, God's justice and peace are experienced. Yet, I was disappointed by an imagination that could only anticipate that experience in the traditional spaces and practices Of Compromise, Western Christianity had not the liberating communities of the plantation south arising in the bush arbors where there were no ordained clergy to celebrate the Eucharist or steeple to designate hallowed space. End of quote. From a practical point of view, the campaign also plays a major role in subverting, displacing this exception that is narrative of American Christianity and American nationalism. Fusion politics in the campaign is understood, has a place both as a strategy of coalition building throughout very different categories of the American society. It's also, in my understanding, a ritual, a methods, a norm. It is much more than a strategy. And most importantly, it's an open-ended process to that extent, I think it plays a very distinct role from other concept like the beloved community or the ecclesia that I can speak to that later. But what I find really interesting is that while fusion politics may appear to share with the liberal ideal of civil religion a similar interest and bridging relationships and bringing together different groups of people. It, most, mostly it rippled, it resizes this idea of a covenant underlying civil religion in a way that's potentially more subversive and pushes the boundaries of who is deemed to be deserving of participating in this covenant. Civil religion is premised on the illusion of the possibility of a dialectical reconciliation of differences. Whereas fusion politics maintains the reality of heterogeneity and differences. It doesn't seek to surpass these differences through sort of dialectical process. So to that extent, the PPC ideal or fusion politics offers a way more radical subversive alternative to the worn-out model of civil religion. The racial blind spot of which has been amply commented on, among others, by by Jay who is with us here today. So I went to, I went to conclude by a few remarks about how a, I interpret the work of the PPC against all the critiques I mentioned earlier on, wild Barber and his allies at the PPC are often questions for reenacting and what is called an outdated model of prophetic arithmetic politics based on a sort of hierarchical, patriarchal, church-based forms of leadership. I suggest that such rapid critique Smith's actually the specificity of the campaigns than convention. And I read, in my word the civil disobedience, more revival and fusion politics rituals allowed by this campaign, not as a perigee of the past or has a similar crime, but as a form of contract conduct in the sense that Foucault gifts to this notion of counter conduct. A two, to understand types of religious practices that were oriented against the pastoral mode of power. In reenacting forms and aesthetics, forms of the past. Barber doesn't seek full addition to these forums, but he implements a type of ironic prophetic style that creates a gap. The hegemony, pastoral modes of morality that characterizes, I argue not just Christian nationalism, but also some popular forms of protests that borrow from a secularized form of Protestantism that are present in more popular movements, I would argue such as BLM. So where is the countering part of the PPC conduct conduct aspect? I think it is in its sort of flinch, unflinching commitment to condemning and working against poverty as a systemic structure of inequality. Jesus was a socialist, barber, repeats on and on. And like some protest movements that have become so popular that they become a brand, the PPC is in its high radical, hieratic and categorizing form is not easily appropriated. It's not easily absorbed by neoliberal regimes of political consumptions. It is not brand double seconds. Its attachment to Christian ritual and scriptures. Through these attachments, the PPC is also a counter conduct vis-a-vis secularized forms of atonement that seek easy and cheap way towards reconciliation through personal create trainings and emotional re-education. Through its deep commitment to advocating for what is rate. It is a counter conduct vis-a-vis the moralism of Christian nationalism, Christian nationalist, my quote, barber says so much about the issues where the Bible says so little, but they speak so little about the issues where the Bible says so much, end of quote. Foucault wrote in 1978 and security 2012 and population. There used to be revolutions, a anti feudal revolutions, but there never was. And T per store Revolution. Pastoral power hadn't, had yet, hadn't been through yet a process of revolution. I read the BBC as this form of anti per store or counter conduct that creates the condition of possibility of an outside space. Another type of political experience that escapes the play of dominance and opposition, whereby opposition forces always seemed to be somehow recuperated by liberal regimes of governmentality. And I suggest that it's also this outsiderness of the PPC that may very well make it an efficient, But yet I think it does, it, it does give it a role, sort of symbolic rolling in, in allowing for that outside space to co-exist. Thank you and I look forward to your questions. Thank you. Nadia is wonderful. We will turn now to spencer do with religion teaching fellow at Wittenberg university and affiliated faculty at The Ohio State University. So Spencer's the author of the Alawites, race and law and the religions of noble draw Lee published in the class 200 series at the University of Chicago Press and an award winning book. It received actually the Al Roboto prize from I wanted to get this detail right because it's a great, a great honor from the journal, Journal of African religions. So congratulations on that award. It's really terrific book. And he will be speaking today on move the Philadelphia base natural living movement founded by John Africa, violently suppressed by state action, culminating in the 995 police bombing. Move residences. Spencer. Thank you. It's it's it's an honor to be here, thanks to IU and to the Berlin gateway. It's an honor to think with such inspiring colleagues.